Intermittent Madness!

[BartusCompater]

My 81' has recently decided to get fussy and so it's starting to throw issues at me willy nilly. The thing is, I'm not sure if they're related or not and I'm wondering if I could just get some advice as to where I should start.

The two main issues are thus:

A) There is an intermittent fuel leak coming from one of the injectors. When I first noticed the leak I took a look at the injector that was leaking and noticed that the nut that holds it in was very loose. I just tightened this back down and the leak seemed to go away. Now it comes and goes. Sometimes I'll be driving and I can smell it from inside, and then see where the gas has been dripping down once I stop and pop the hood. Other times I smell nothing and things seem to be dry as can be.

B) Occasionally the car will start, die, and then turn over but then refuse to start. After waiting for about 5 minutes or perhaps just cranking the engine a good 20-40 times it then starts up and runs flawlessly. This happens perhaps every 1 in 4 times I've gone to start the car in the past week.

So I'm trying to approach this as logically as possible to cut down what I think the problem(s) could be. I'm fairly certain that the fuel leak doesn't have anything to do with the starting problem, but I'm a novice so I can't be sure. I'm guessing that it's just a bad seal somewhere, and I've ordered a little injector repair kit from IAP.

As far as the starting problem, I guess it could be a lot of things, but I'm wondering where you guys would suggest I look first. Finals are coming up, and I don't have oodles of time to tear my fuel system and my ignition systems apart.

At first I figured that it could be the fuel pump going out. The car always starts and then dies before I have to keep cranking it, which leads me to believe that it has a little bit of fuel to get it started and then burns that and is no longer getting supplied. I don't know a lot about how the pump system works, but now when I think about it, it seems to me that if the fuel pump weren't working properly the car wouldn't be running as well as it does once the car actually gets started.

Is there a chance that the leak coming from the injector/manifold area could be disrupting the flow of the fuel upon starting the car, and that cranking the engine is necessary to push more fuel up to get things started? Or could it have to do with something entirely different, like timing or the starter? Just looking for more experienced opinions here.

[narfire]

Good call on fixing the leak/replace the injector hose. Starter is right below,not a good place for fuel. If you have a VW place nearby, they might sell you injector hose(7.5-8 mm works for me) and a parts store the special clamps. Cut the hose square at 2 3/4 inches (perfect length Mark) and pull the whole injector rail out,about 15 minutes, and change ALL the hose on the bench.
Not sure why the car takes so long to engage though.

[BartusCompater]

I drove to school yesterday (it's only about a block away) and upon getting back in to return home the car didn't start again. This time however, it didn't start up after cranking on it. I've taken a look under the distributor cap and I noticed there's some wear way below the contact points, and there's obviously some dust colored the same as the distributor plastic on the rotor.

So I guess I'm gonna try replacing the cap and rotor and I'll see if that does anything just to get everything started. It's finals right now and I just haven't had time to look at the car, but I still need to go places. I hope that car appreciates everything I go through for it.

Also noticed that from one of the spark plug wells (a couple of which have oil in them), there is some bubbling occuring. So I guess I'm losing compression in one of the cylinders. This, and I believe it's the same cylinder with the leaky injector.

[BartusCompater]

What would cause wear like this, just hitting a bump?

[htchevyii]

Try to wiggle the dist shaft and make sure the bearings aren't bad.

[boogiedude]

The bubbling of oil/fluid around the spark plug could be either of two things, 1) if it bubbles only when the engne is at temperature, then it's most likely boiling off the coolant or oil that's trapped down there or 2) if it happens whenever the car runs, it's most likely a bad compression washer around the spark plug. If you take your plugs out and put them back a couple of times without changing them out, the washer can go bad. Run down to napa and get some new plugs or tighten them down if they seem loose and see if that helps.

As for the starting problem, I don't know much about F.I. systems but the pressure in the fuel line is supposed to be much greater then that in carbed cars, and it's supposed to stay that way. So my guess would be that because you have a leak, it is depressurizing the system when you park and it just needs time to get everythng pressurized to function right. That's just my $.02

[BartusCompater]

boogie, I think that you might be right about the fuel system.

I was thinking bad seal/compression on the spark plugs as well. Actually had a hunch that maybe oil had gotten in and was maybe preventing a spark. So today I replaced the cap and rotor on the distributor, cleaned out the spark plug wells with brake cleaner, sprayed the plugs off, put some brake cleaner in the cylinder, turned the engine without the sparks in to maybe slosh things around a bit, tightened the plugs back in, and tried it again. Nothing though.

The plugs might be fouled up, but I'm more inclined to believe that the starting problems aren't just coincidentally occurring after the fuel leak popped up.

[124cso]

You'll see from my previous posts, I've been thru this drama too.
The FI system is a bit more complex than some think.
Just a few comments : If you replace the injector pipes ( inboard of the fuel rail) I would suggest pulling out the rail & injectors as a unit. It will be easier to fit the new ( tight) hoses. BUT it ain't easy to fit it all back in. No'4 injector will have you cussing and questioning the designer's parentage. It would be very easy if motor out of the car. Allow a good half hour to install. A short body 10mm OE/ring spanner will help or buy a cheap spanner and cut in half.

A third hand growing out of your forehead helps too ( to hold the torch so you can see down there)

Not found written in many places, but fuel pump will not run unless there is airflow in intake system - i.e. engine turning over or fingers twiddling with air flow sensor flap!

Oil around your plugs can be a bad sign. is it dirty or clean(ish)? If cleanish, could be just spilt when adding oil to filler bung. Otherwise, could be leaking from camboxes or cambox covers. Try replacing cambox cover gaskets first. Worst scenario is oil & fuel blowing up past plugs - find another head.

[BartusCompater]

Finally had a chance to pull things apart today.



Anyone know where I can get bushings for the front of the injectors?

Not seeing anything on IAP and I wouldn't know where to start looking otherwise.

Also... I thought I'd let everyone know that the injector repair kits from IAP come with hoses that are FAR too short to use as a replacement. They're about 1.6 inches. You can see the one standing up in my photo which came with the kit and compare it to the ones still connected.

[zachmac]

Finally had a chance to pull things apart today.



Anyone know where I can get bushings for the front of the injectors?

Not seeing anything on IAP and I wouldn't know where to start looking otherwise.

Also... I thought I'd let everyone know that the injector repair kits from IAP come with hoses that are FAR too short to use as a replacement. They're about 1.6 inches. You can see the one standing up in my photo which came with the kit and compare it to the ones still connected.

First, I would call IAP and complain. They also sell that hose by the foot so there is absolutley no excuse for sending you pieces that are to short to use. My experience with them has been that they sometimes screw up (don't we all) but that they will make it right when it is pointed out.

Also, does their "kit" use clamps or the OEM style compression rings. I HIGHLY recommend you use clamps. A remanufactured (?) injector I bought to replace a bad one used one of the rings and sure enough within a day or two it came loose and started leaking. I pulled the rail back off, added a clamp and voila, no leak.

I was able to get the "repair kit" from my local Advance Auto in a day and it included both the upper and lower seal / rubber. They also sell clamps by the box.

[narfire]

Hi Dustin.
If you have a Volkswagon place nearby, buy a foot of the injector hose.ID-8 mm. I did mine a few weeks back. Length 2 3/4 inches each. It's a bit fiddly removing the old hose with a box cutter and pliers,band-aids handy, but they do come off. Please source the proper clamps,(NAPA?)here in Canada I think they are too expensive at about $2.00+ each, but they clamp the hose tightly as you know you have 35+ psi in the hose.
I sourced the seals at our local Lordco store, similar to NAPA I guess. There was a post somewheres a few months ago where the fellow had taken the injectors to a place for testing ( Seattle area). I did the same here where he changed the internal filter and tips if needed and seals for $25 cdn each.
Just make sure the clamps are tight and set in a way you can get a screw driver on them once the rail is back in the car. In my case always seems to be one that needs a 1/4 turn once installed as there was dampness at a connection.
Oh.. another thing.. no rings on the fingers, connecting the sensor under the intake manifold, I have brushed up against the hot leads to the starter... sparks and a blister real quick.
Good luck
Chris

[BartusCompater]

Ooh, I am in the Seattle area. What kind of place would check the injectors out as described (filters and such)?

Also, thanks for the tips. I found that the leaky injector hose came off just with some tugging and twisting. I've been doing the plier/box cutter maneuver on those ones and it has been much tougher.

[narfire]

I did a brief search here at several topics but don't know how to show here. One suggestion was to goto the yellow pages and see about a Bosch injection place. Price.. mine were $25 cdn for clean, filter check, tip check, test and replace small seal. I think it was $20 each there in Seattle area.

[baltobernie]

Ooh, I am in the Seattle area. What kind of place would check the injectors out as described

http://www.witchhunter.com/

... and this is the way to cut hoses. Much cheaper than new fingers
http://www.harborfreight.com/ratchet-ac ... 39749.html

[BartusCompater]

Extreme failure today. I had replaced all of the hoses and clamps, as well as the seals on the injectors. Put everything back in and the car still refused to start. Given that the battery had also been worn out from being cranked on hundreds of times before trying the injection repair, I was also being jumped while trying to start it.

After a deal of trying to get the car started, not knowing what to expect, there was a loud bang from the engine. My friend, who was standing on the passenger's side, said he saw a flash from the engine block in the front area near the fan.

The car started a few times intermittently and then died soon after as well. After a long time of trying to let the battery charge and then crank the car over again, smoke started rising from the engine. It smelled really toxic, not like gas burning, but like rubber or plastic, and it really burned when it got into my eyes. I looks around but I couldn't really see where it was coming from. Anyway, I've taken some pictures, as well as a recording of the engine cranking. It definitely didn't sound normal.

All of this was done in a sort of desperation, trying to get the car started. Cranking on it so much probably wasn't a good idea. Anyway, I'm hoping someone might be able to give me an idea of what the explosion and/or the burning might be.

Here's the video of me cranking on the engine. Note that I'm not moving the key back and forth, I keep it in the starting position the entire time.

http://s883.photobucket.com/albums/ac40 ... CN1537.mp4