Hard shifting--A transmission or a clutch problem?

[BartusCompater]

The other day I changed the transmission oil out (used the GL-1 SAE 90) because I was getting a whine in 2nd and 3rd gears, and it was becoming a little bit tougher to shift. Well I took the car out for a nice long drive yesterday and wasn't happy with the results.

The drive started out just fine. Had the top down and was heading up north on the freeway at around 70. I got off the freeway and started going down some backroads that required me to do more than just leave the car in 5th gear. The drive was probably a total of around 2 hours, and as it progressed I noticed it become harder and harder to shift, to the point where about an an hour and a half into the drive I was stuck at stop signs trying to shove the shifter into first gear while waving people through.

Since my clutch was replaced about a month ago, I've had to put the shifter into 4th before I get it into 1st (I was under the impression that the clutch pedal wasn't disengaging all of the way because of some extra padding I have under it). Other than that, it was fine. This was much worse, however. Even after tightening the clutch cable just a little bit I had gear grinding while shifting up and shifting down from and into 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Additionally, and this is what really throws me off, if I took my foot off of the brake the car would sometimes travel forward slowly while on level ground even with the clutch pedal depressed all of the way (like I was driving an automatic).

This and the shifting problems lead me to believe that my clutch isn't disengaging all of the way. I checked to see if the hole in my firewall had re-opened, but it hasn't. On the other hand, all of this springs up just after I replace the transmission oil. I jacked up the front of the car today and made sure that I had it filled all of the way. Sure enough, when I removed that plug oil started to spill out.

This is the correct fill plug, right?




Lastly, I let the car sit for a while (about 5 hours) after that long drive, and then took it home for a short one that night. Aside from a little bit of grinding getting in and out of 3rd and 4th, it was fine. No shoving it into first or second. Could the heat of the oil have something to do with what's going on?

I've been following some threads dealing with transmission oil and transmission problems, and I've been thinking of trying the Valvoline VR1 SAE 50 that Alvon has talked about putting in his his transmission after having bad luck with the GL-1, but I have a feeling that it would be wishful thinking to say that the new GL-1 is causing all of these problems.

[Mathew26]

If your clutch is adjusted properly you should not have these problems unless something the trans has come apart. Your old fluid may have trapped trash in it, and this may have stuck to the side of your case. The new fluid released the gummy build up and the trash could now be floating in your case. I personally would redrain and fill the trans, and make sure that you fill it while the car is level.

Of course this is all a guess based on the information. I hope this helps.

[pope]

question,
if you are jacking up the front of the car, how can you be checking the trans oil with the car on an angle?
It takes 1 3/4 quarts. Is that what you put in?

Is there a clutch return spring on the transmission that attaches to the yoke, where the clutch pedal cable is adjusted.

[BartusCompater]

Pope, I was using a 1 gallon jug of the Gl-1 and a little squeeze bottle before I decided to go out and buy a fluid pump for the oil. While I was using the squeeze bottle I spilled quite a bit, but in the end I used about half of the gallon jug, so 1 3/4 quarts sounds about right.

I had the car jacked up from the front when I was filling it as well, since I only have two jack stands. I figured that having it at an angle would allow me to get more in there anyway, but I guess that this was a rookie mistake. Maybe it's time to pick up two more stands and just use the rest of that oil to refill it.

[Mathew26]

Doing another oil swap would probably be a good idea, but you may really want to drop the pan to thoroughly clean it first.

[BartusCompater]

I just got the pan off. I don't really know what to look for other than loose chunks of metal floating around, but I haven't seen any of that. Here are some pictures.




I just want to ask again to make sure... was I filling it from the right point? There are two threaded plugs in the passenger side of the transmission. One is much lower but protrudes more and can be taken off with a box end wrench or a socket (this is where I filled it from), the other is higher and barely emerges from the side, but takes what looks like a 10 or 12mm allen wrench.

[So Cal Mark]

use the lower plug to fill. Since it's happening in all gears you can deduce a couple of things; if it's internal in the trans, it would have to be a problem with the bearing inbetween the input and output shafts but I would expect a clutch problem first.
The tranny oil should thin out after driving for 2 hrs, rather than get thicker and cause shifting trouble. From what you described, it sounds like the clutch is not disengaging completely.
It is possible that oil is getting on the clutch and causing it to stick to the flywheel.

[majicwrench]

As Mark said, and as you have deduced, your clutch is not releasing all the way. This has nothing to do with the oil in the trans. That's why it creeps forward, that's why the gear grind. By shoving it into 4th gear, you stop the input shaft from spinning, which then allows you to get it into 1st.
Zillions of reasons why the clutch not releasing, busted firewall, bad cable, bad pressure plate, bellhousing not snugged to engine, the list goes on and on. Realisticly,, this is not a trans problem.
I remember your previous post, from my point of view you need to find a real mechanic who can fix your clutch.

Keith

[narfire]

I love to learn from my mistakes/ignorance. I kinda had the same issues after first putting the car back together (before I knew about this forum). The clutch was engaging when the pedal was close to the floor, made for some noisy shifts. After looking at the manual, I screwed the adjustment nut in a bit and tried again. Pedal was about halfway,screwed it in a bit more and now I'm happy with the engagement point. Also, as others have mentioned, the pivot point can pop off.
Do you have a manual that shows the clutch bits and set up?
Where are you hanging your hat?

[BartusCompater]

The other day, after creating this thread and finishing my replacement of the gear oil again with the car level, I took it for another test drive with equally frustrating results.

So I gave the clutch cable a decent tightening with about 1.5-2" of free play in the pedal. I'm being really careful about monitoring my firewall, since it's cracked before, but I guess my thoughts are that the clutch cable came loose somehow. I adjusted it to where I wanted it and I wrenched it tight, so if I start having problems again I'll be certain that the clutch is having serious issues again. And if it is, I will be taking it to a real mechanic. Apparently the mechanic that was referred to me has not one but two Fiats in his lot right now.

Oh, and with the adjustment it actually feels as though I really have a new clutch, which is great. It's incredible how much happier I am when the car is shifting easily. The pleasure of driving is just hugely improved.

[So Cal Mark]

the normal amount of free play at the top would be 3/4-1"

[BartusCompater]

I might tighten it up again a little bit later. Right now I'm just a little paranoid about cracking that firewall back open.

[So Cal Mark]

then you shouldn't depress the clutch pedal

[BartusCompater]

Yeah, I bet I could get pretty good at just revving it up and pushing it through the gears!