Welp, it's been a busy week. I've put on a new head, new top and brand new interior (minus consoles) as well as new tires onto my car. The biggest project for me was the head, as I haven't done something like this for a little over 6 years. Now I have the I-just-finished-a-big-project-and-I-don't-want-to-know-if-it-works-or-not blues.
So I want to double check as I put the timing belt on because this is the area that I doubt myself most in. The head is set at TDC with the two camshaft pulleys aligned with the holes at the notches (thanks for sending it that way Mark..), how do I know for sure that the pistons are at TDC? Right now I have the notch on the crankshaft pulley pointed directly up, is there a mark that, that should be pointing at as well? When I had the head off the pistons were about a 1/2 from the top of the block, is this correct?
The distributor is turned to the 4th cylinder and I have it positioned to the same spot as it was on the other head, so I think I should be good on that.
Anything else I should be aware of? Everything is torqued down, I've changed the oil and flushed out the coolant. Put a little gas in the carb, I just want to be sure this little thing works!
Thanks for your help!
Jon
Timing Belt and Top Dead Center (TDC)
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Jon
I think I might be a tad confused in my original post. I was reffering to the Auxiliary Shaft as the Crank Shaft. 
I just pulled up this timing belt replacement guide I'm looking at right now: http://www.danielreinhardt.com/fiat/Ser ... Helper.pdf
So according to this I should be good. I'm going to double over everything and then we'll pray this thing works!
I just pulled up this timing belt replacement guide I'm looking at right now: http://www.danielreinhardt.com/fiat/Ser ... Helper.pdf
So according to this I should be good. I'm going to double over everything and then we'll pray this thing works!
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Jon
The timing looks good and I have everything set up. But the car still isn't starting. It looks like I'm not getting any type of spark from the distributor and only one of the points is firing (albeit, somewhat weak).
In all honesty I'd prefer to switch to electronic ignition, but I can't find anywhere up here in WA that can provide electronic ignition or points before the end of the week!
In all honesty I'd prefer to switch to electronic ignition, but I can't find anywhere up here in WA that can provide electronic ignition or points before the end of the week!
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ventura ace
Sounds like your short block is not set for Top Dead Center. If the piston is 1/2 from the top (1/2 inch?? . . . 1/2 way???), then it's probably not at TDC. The notch on the crankshaft pulley points to the zero° mark when the engine is at TDC (this mark is on the timing wheel cover, in my case) . On a 1.8L engine, this is roughly pointed in the direction of the top of the DS fender. If it is pointed straight up, then it may be about 45° off!! I hope this hasn't caused any contact between the pistons and valves.
The easiest way to get TDC is to take out a spark plug, and drop in a wood dowel, screw driver, or something like that to rest on top of the piston. Rotate the engine until your wood dowel reaches its highest point, which is TDC. Use caution so as not to scratch the piston or cylinder when making this measurement. You may have to rotate the engine back and forth a few times to get a feel for where TDC actually is. I use a dial indicator to read the position of the wooden dowel, to make it a little easier.
When all your timing marks are at TDC, the dizzy should be set to fire off #4 spark plug. Do that, and you should be hearing it running real soon.
Good luck,
alvon
The easiest way to get TDC is to take out a spark plug, and drop in a wood dowel, screw driver, or something like that to rest on top of the piston. Rotate the engine until your wood dowel reaches its highest point, which is TDC. Use caution so as not to scratch the piston or cylinder when making this measurement. You may have to rotate the engine back and forth a few times to get a feel for where TDC actually is. I use a dial indicator to read the position of the wooden dowel, to make it a little easier.
When all your timing marks are at TDC, the dizzy should be set to fire off #4 spark plug. Do that, and you should be hearing it running real soon.
Good luck,
alvon
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Jon
Hey Alvon,
Thanks for the post, that is a good idea to drop something (carefully) and bring the pistons to the top. At the time of the initial post I didn't have it completely at TDC and I had the wherewithal to catch it before I ruined anything!
I turned the engine by hand twice before actually trying to start it up and everything was clear, so I don't think I would've been able to actually harm anything by trying to turn the key.
The problem right now just appears to be a lack of spark in the distributor. The ignition coil is giving me plenty of oomph, but it appears both of the points are pretty weak. Well, one doesn't even give me a spark, the other is small and inconsistent.
I hope I can get this thing fixed soon!
Thanks for the post, that is a good idea to drop something (carefully) and bring the pistons to the top. At the time of the initial post I didn't have it completely at TDC and I had the wherewithal to catch it before I ruined anything!
I turned the engine by hand twice before actually trying to start it up and everything was clear, so I don't think I would've been able to actually harm anything by trying to turn the key.
The problem right now just appears to be a lack of spark in the distributor. The ignition coil is giving me plenty of oomph, but it appears both of the points are pretty weak. Well, one doesn't even give me a spark, the other is small and inconsistent.
I hope I can get this thing fixed soon!
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So Cal Mark
only one set of points work at any given time. Voltage is reduced to the points to keep them from arcing, so you shouldn't see a huge spark there.
With the dist cap off and turned upside down, lay the rotor so that it's near the center cap electrode. Then work the points open and closed with a small screwdriver, taking care not to touch the screwdriver to ground. With the key on, you should see a spark arcing from the center electrode to the rotor and from the rotor tip to a side electrode. Make sure the rotor is close to both electrodes. If you have spark there, you should be getting spark to the plugs.
With the dist cap off and turned upside down, lay the rotor so that it's near the center cap electrode. Then work the points open and closed with a small screwdriver, taking care not to touch the screwdriver to ground. With the key on, you should see a spark arcing from the center electrode to the rotor and from the rotor tip to a side electrode. Make sure the rotor is close to both electrodes. If you have spark there, you should be getting spark to the plugs.
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Jon
Mark,
I can't say that I completely understood what was said, but I think I understand the concept. This is what I did:
Spark went from the rotor edges to both the ignition coil wire and the spark plug wire when the key was in the 'on' position and I used a screwdriver to put a gap in the point. Only one point produced any type of spark though. When I tested the other point using the same method I had nothing.
I put everything back on and this is how I have the thing set up. If you see anything from these pictures that is wrong or could be causing it not to fire up, please let me know!
Distributor without cap on. New rotor and capacitor. Of course, the new point didn't make it today. Napa tells me, 'tomorrow'
Distributor cap is back on, air cleaner still off. I dripped a little oil on the header. Still though, it looks pretty.
Cam Timing marks are lined up. They are below too, but I can't get a good shot. Timing is set at 5 degrees BTDC.
Thanks for the continued help and support gents.
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I can't say that I completely understood what was said, but I think I understand the concept. This is what I did:
Spark went from the rotor edges to both the ignition coil wire and the spark plug wire when the key was in the 'on' position and I used a screwdriver to put a gap in the point. Only one point produced any type of spark though. When I tested the other point using the same method I had nothing.
I put everything back on and this is how I have the thing set up. If you see anything from these pictures that is wrong or could be causing it not to fire up, please let me know!
Distributor without cap on. New rotor and capacitor. Of course, the new point didn't make it today. Napa tells me, 'tomorrow'
Distributor cap is back on, air cleaner still off. I dripped a little oil on the header. Still though, it looks pretty.
Cam Timing marks are lined up. They are below too, but I can't get a good shot. Timing is set at 5 degrees BTDC.
Thanks for the continued help and support gents.
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So Cal Mark
Jon
It all looks good. As I previously wrote, only one set of points works at any time. There is a relay that switches power from one set of points to the other when starting cold.
Now that you have the motor on TDC, turn the dist body so that the set of points that has power is just starting to open. Make sure the rotor is pointing to #4 and the motor should start
It all looks good. As I previously wrote, only one set of points works at any time. There is a relay that switches power from one set of points to the other when starting cold.
Now that you have the motor on TDC, turn the dist body so that the set of points that has power is just starting to open. Make sure the rotor is pointing to #4 and the motor should start
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Jon
Should start being the key phrase here, it appears I did need to just replace the rotor. I'm now getting good spark from the spark plugs.
But... that's the only difference. She still doesn't want to fire at all. I just don't get it. I don't think I could have flooded the engine, but even if I did, it should've started by now. This car is starting to baffle me.
But... that's the only difference. She still doesn't want to fire at all. I just don't get it. I don't think I could have flooded the engine, but even if I did, it should've started by now. This car is starting to baffle me.
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ventura ace
Jon,
I have had issues with those rotors that you see pictured there. For whatever reason, when the rotor is pushed all the way down on the dizzy shaft, it doesn't make good contact with the top of the cap. To compensate, I have just pushed the rotor down part way. That reminds me, I was meaning to make a spacer to put below the rotor, so I can push the rotor down firmly against the spacer.
I ran my car for several hundred miles with poor spacing (and a lot of arcing going on inside the cap) until I finally realized the problem, because all the arcing made the contacts get worse and worse until it finally wouldn't run anymore.
Just something else to check out.
alvon
I have had issues with those rotors that you see pictured there. For whatever reason, when the rotor is pushed all the way down on the dizzy shaft, it doesn't make good contact with the top of the cap. To compensate, I have just pushed the rotor down part way. That reminds me, I was meaning to make a spacer to put below the rotor, so I can push the rotor down firmly against the spacer.
I ran my car for several hundred miles with poor spacing (and a lot of arcing going on inside the cap) until I finally realized the problem, because all the arcing made the contacts get worse and worse until it finally wouldn't run anymore.
Just something else to check out.
alvon
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So Cal Mark
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ventura ace
Mark raises a good point about your plugs getting fouled if you have been cranking for some time without it ever catching.
Going back to where you said you have a strong spark from the coil. I think you said you get a strong spark from the center wire. To check this out, pull the center wire off the dizzy cap and hold it close to the engine while someone cranks. You should get a good strong arcing spark, 4 times for every time the rotor goes full circle (you can leave the cap off to verify this). If this is true, then your coil is good and your points are good. You can rest assured that the points are fine if you are getting a good spark from the coil center wire.
1) Next, put the cap back on, and center wire connected. Take any of the spark plug wires off the spark plug, put a philips head screwdriver in to the end of the wire, and hold the shaft of the screwdriver close to the engine metal while someone cranks the engine (hold the screwdriver by the handle, of course). You should see a strong arc from the screwdriver shaft to the engine (but only 1/4 as many per unit of time as when testing the center wire). If yes, then the rotor, cap, and wires are also good. If no, then one of these 3 parts is a problem. Check all 4 wires to verify good spark to the end of each of the wires.
2) If good spark to this point, pull a plug out, make sure that it is not fouled (or use a new plug), and plug it into the wire. Have someone crank the engine while the plug metal housing is grounded to the engine. I usually will put my large vise grip pliers around the plug metal outer housing, lock the pliers lightly, then lay them so that the metal part of the pliers is resting in between the cam towers touching metal, and the plug electrode is pointed up to where I can get a good look at it. You should see a good healthy spark across the electrode as the engine is cranked. Check all 4 plugs.
3) If you get good spark thru the steps outlined above, and it still won't crank, then you have a timing issue or a fuel issue.
as before, good luck. You'll get there!!
alvon
Going back to where you said you have a strong spark from the coil. I think you said you get a strong spark from the center wire. To check this out, pull the center wire off the dizzy cap and hold it close to the engine while someone cranks. You should get a good strong arcing spark, 4 times for every time the rotor goes full circle (you can leave the cap off to verify this). If this is true, then your coil is good and your points are good. You can rest assured that the points are fine if you are getting a good spark from the coil center wire.
1) Next, put the cap back on, and center wire connected. Take any of the spark plug wires off the spark plug, put a philips head screwdriver in to the end of the wire, and hold the shaft of the screwdriver close to the engine metal while someone cranks the engine (hold the screwdriver by the handle, of course). You should see a strong arc from the screwdriver shaft to the engine (but only 1/4 as many per unit of time as when testing the center wire). If yes, then the rotor, cap, and wires are also good. If no, then one of these 3 parts is a problem. Check all 4 wires to verify good spark to the end of each of the wires.
2) If good spark to this point, pull a plug out, make sure that it is not fouled (or use a new plug), and plug it into the wire. Have someone crank the engine while the plug metal housing is grounded to the engine. I usually will put my large vise grip pliers around the plug metal outer housing, lock the pliers lightly, then lay them so that the metal part of the pliers is resting in between the cam towers touching metal, and the plug electrode is pointed up to where I can get a good look at it. You should see a good healthy spark across the electrode as the engine is cranked. Check all 4 plugs.
3) If you get good spark thru the steps outlined above, and it still won't crank, then you have a timing issue or a fuel issue.
as before, good luck. You'll get there!!
alvon
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tanis