Fiat Chrys not a done deal yet

[So Cal Mark]

I try to avoid patronizing businesses and industries that rely on uneducated, unmotivated minimum wage employees. I doubt the Big 3 will produce a quality product with that level of employee. It will be a great situation when the retired population is living on the streets, since they don't deserve a pension. I'm planning on working until I drop, so it's not my problem

[Kevin1]

I believe however that the wages are out of line and unsustainable. Using the figure from the UAW site you provide, a "typical" worker is at $27+ to $29+ per hour of straight time. (and I suspect this is deceptive) By comparison, where I come from, this is more than my wife makes as an experienced registered nurse.

Wengr,
I agree, those hourly rates are pretty high, and better than many degreed positions pay, as you point out. What I see is a terminal situation, unless there is a fundamental change made to how UAW workers and retirees are compensated. How can anyof the big 3 automakers possibly make good on the promises they made to their union employees? They can't. The money is just not there.
I have been self-employed for 30+ years. And by that, I don't mean I've got lots of people making money for me. If I don't work, I don't make anything. No retirement packages, no big benefits. What I fear is that next I will find that you and I will have to pay the auto companie's obligations as part of another structured bailout.

[wengr]

I have been self-employed for 30+ years. And by that, I don't mean I've got lots of people making money for me. If I don't work, I don't make anything. No retirement packages, no big benefits. What I fear is that next I will find that you and I will have to pay the auto companie's obligations as part of another structured bailout.

I hear you Kevin. Self employed/small business owner for almost 20 years here. No retirement, no benefits, no unemployment comp saftey net, and you know what what I'll survive, as that system tends to work far better than a ponzi economy and a government that rewards sloth and stupidity.

[mdrburchette]

I try to avoid patronizing businesses and industries that rely on uneducated, unmotivated minimum wage employees. I doubt the Big 3 will produce a quality product with that level of employee. It will be a great situation when the retired population is living on the streets, since they don't deserve a pension. I'm planning on working until I drop, so it's not my problem

Mark, it sounds like you assume if someone isn't a union employee, they are uneducated and willing to work for minimum wage and the Big 3's employees are held to a higher standard than other factory workers. I can't think of any unions where I live and all the factory workers I know take pride in their jobs. They get paid by production so they have an input in how much money they can make. One difference I see is our cost of living hasn't been inflated due to the higher wages.

We've been self employed for 15 years. The benefits suck and the customer always comes first but we enjoy what we do.

[sjmst]

Non union employees produce as good or better than union. There is no question that workers were abused, and the rise of unions were in response to that.

Still, we need to realize that corporations and employers are not there to guarantee workers jobs. Period. They are in the business of making profit. As soon as they take their eye off that goal, they are no good to anyone, including workers.

[So Cal Mark]

I've never been a huge fan of unions; I think they evolved to merely protect the union officials lifestyles. But I think that has changed in recent years as jobs moved overseas and there are more workers than jobs. I just don't think forcing everyone to work for minimum wage will be a good move for the general populus. It will be hard to stay self-employed in a small business if no one has any money to spend.
There has to be a mid-point between employers and workers whether it's with a union or not.

[spidernut]

Chrysler once bragged that it only cost them $6,000 to manufacture, distribute and market their $20,000 minivans. I'm sure that's not the case any longer. The auto industry and auto unions are going to have to reinvent themselves as viable entities. UAW wage/benefits packages have been considered abnormally high for the type of work performed for as long as I can remember. Remember Lee Iacocca? He had to reinvent Chrysler. He needed a government bailout back then. He had to get Chrysler out of the business of building land yachts and into building fuel efficient and reliable cars. Did Chrysler learn from the past? Heck no!

US makers don't get it - their cars aren't generally appealing inside or out, basic models are too stripped of options and options are costly, sales strategies still rely upon aggressive salespeople, reliability is close but not up to par with the Japanese makers, and their company brand has suffered a devistating blow.

I would love nothing more than to buy American. When I return to the States this summer after 3 years overseas, I'll be looking hard at the US cars. The problem is that my old Japanese cars (Nissan and Toyotas) run flawlessly despite their age. They're fun to drive, get fantastic fuel economy and ownership costs are almost nothing. That's not been the case with my US-built cars excluding my 1998 Plymouth Voyager (it has been fantastic!). The competition will be tough for the US manufacturers to get my business.

GM and Chrysler will have a tough road ahead no matter what happens with bailouts, mergers or bankruptcy. I just pray that they do rework their wage/benefits packages, improve their products and service and revamp their aggressive sales approaches. It would be a shame to have the "Big One" instead of the "Big Three."

[wengr]

Still, we need to realize that corporations and employers are not there to guarantee workers jobs. Period. They are in the business of making profit. As soon as they take their eye off that goal, they are no good to anyone, including workers.

Could not be more accurate or better said.

[So Cal Mark]

that is the root problem with all publicly held corporations; they exist to make as large a profit as possible for the shareholders. Doesn't matter if the product is crap, if the workers are slaves, etc as long as the shareholder is happy. They smile while the ship is sinking, counting the dividends, then asking the govt to cover their losses when it all falls apart.
If we want to continue to embrace capitalism, then we should let them all fail

[spiderrey]

Im sorry, but i think that some of you people just dont get it. 27.00 an hour isnt what i would call excessive pay. all non union workers dont all do as good a job as all union workers. just like all union workers are not necessarily better then non union workers. i think union workers are just smarter, im sorry but if i was a non union worker and i knew i could make more and have better benefits for my family, i would make every effort to get through that door. if you get rid of the unions, the middle class will shrink even more. union workers are actually a benefit to non union workers. its been my experience that everytime we got a raise, the non union competition got bumped up a little too. thier bosses need to keep them happy so they dont come over to our side. you guys need to open your eyes and look at the big picture. ive been union for over 27 years, my parents were union for the studios, now retired and living in palm springs, the way it should be. not like the poor fella i see working at wall mart greeting people for low wages, because he cant afford to retire and enjoy life. if you have a problem with the fact that someone makes more money then you, or has better benfits, maybe you should get a better job, or maybe you should have researched the field before you got into it. unions have issues i agree, but they are not what has this country in a shithole. its greed , and it comes from the top. its also stupidity, i watched people take out loan after loan on thier house for cars, trucks vacations. you push it to the edge, and your gonna fall off. flame on

[wengr]

Im sorry, but i think that some of you people just dont get it. 27.00 an hour isnt what i would call excessive pay.

Oh I get it. I get that GM has become a burden to the taxpayer. I get that Obama wants taxpayers to underwrite GM warranty coverage - My god that's scary for a multitude of reasons. By any reasonable standard GM has failed.

[spiderrey]

im sorry, i dont get it. how does paying someone 27.00 an hour have anything to do with gm becoming a burden to us tax payers. please explain. im all for listening to anyones opinion , but this dosent make any sense. the 27 $ isnt what killed gm. it was the fact that they didnt look into the future to prepare themselves for the change that was coming. they were to busy milking us because we were buying thier 40,000 trucks like they were going out of style. by the, i didnt buy one. they were to busy passing out mega million doller bonuses up top, not to the regular workers. the company was to busy living fat off the hog, now the hogs dead. i believe for someone to be so dead set about being against unions, thay have to be totally ignorant about unions and thier history. ignorance is not a bad thing. but an opinion based on ignorance is useless and dosent solve anything. . dont get me wrong, im not mad here, i just find it hard to find logic in some of the stuff thats being written here. i like you guys wether you agree with me or not. i just dont understand you. when ever something goes wrong, people get this mob mentality and want to plant blame anywhere just to make themselves feel better. its funny how everyones complaining now, but when the train was coming down the track right at us, we were to busy to say or do anything about it the.

im done, have a nice fiat day. im gonna go work on my cars.

[mdrburchette]

Rey, I understand the unions help the middle class make a better living, but they also cause the cost of living to go up where ever they are and cause the price of manufactured items to be out of hand. I live in the Southeast where you don't find many unions. People go to work for $12 - $15 an hour, live within their means and save for retirement with their company matching a percentage of their 401K. These people are not ignorant or uneducated. They are no different than union workers except they know if they want to move up in the company, they'll have to prove themselves and not be automatically moved up because of seniority. In my business, I can spot a union worker a mile away. They come to me wanting a job and tell me how great they are. Then, when I have them come to work, they stop every couple of hours for a 20 minute break that stretches to half an hour and refuse to work one minute over 40 hours. They complain if I ask them to help on another job and expect more money than others doing the same job. What really gets me is they no longer work for a company. They are self employed. They agreed to work for what I offered them and agreed to the terms but that all changes when they get their foot in the door. Of course, they last a couple weeks and I get rid of them. In my humble opinion, the union has killed the ambition in America's workforce. They played a large role in saving the worker from slavery but now they're too big and greedy.

[Spiddy]

[quote="unions have issues i agree, but they are not what has this country in a shithole. its greed , and it comes from the top. its also stupidity, i watched people take out loan after loan on thier house for cars, trucks vacations. you push it to the edge, and your gonna fall off. flame on[/quote]

Obviously, I'm not into American politics. However, it does apear the world over that the "well conected" rarely suffer. In the UK, in Spain, in the USofA and I'm sure in many other countries, the very people that got us all in this "shithole" through their greed and absolute stupidity - I'm talking of course of Bankers, that's with a B - get bailed out and are allowed to profit from their disgrace.

But it's not only those parias that are to blame. We live in a materialistic world. We all want the very latest and the very best and to acheive this, we borrow, we borrow, and we borrow.

In the UK the banks and mortgage companies were offering 5 times salary on mortgages. HOW BLOODY STUPID IS THAT?

In the UK the latest "must have" (untill now of course) was a holiday home, preferably abroad and in the sun. WHY??? I know several people who bought here in Spain, none of them could afford it, but they were totally taken in by the spin. None of them took the time to really look into the pit falls - of which there are many - because the pit falls were not pointed out in the sales blurb. It appears we have to be led by marketing spin doctors and we no longer think for ourselves. But it's hard not to follow the flock when it's in your face 24 7, 365 BUY NOW! NOW WITH BLA BLA TECHNOLOGY! NEW IMPROVED WITH ADDED BLA BLA! IT'S WHAT YOU DESERVE, YOU ARE NOT A NUMBER! THE INDIVIDUALS CHOICE! I T' S J U S T S O M U C H C R A P ! ! ! But we all get taken in, don't we? We all like to show how successful we are, don't we? We all want to be accepted, don't we? And WE marketing types prey on that phsycology and milk it for all it's worth! (not any more. I jacked it in 8 years ago and moved out here to get away from all the crap and to start enjoying life).

I hope I haven't offended anyone here, I just feel passionate about the way the world is going, the greedy, short sighted control freaks running it and the rediculous restrictions placed upon us. AND THE CLEVER POLITICIANS THAT THINK WE'RE STUPID.

GLOBAL MARKET, GLOBAL ECONOMY, GLOBAL COCK-UP!

[spiderrey]

Denise, i could never survive on $15.00 an hour. i have a very modest house the cost over 350,000 . and i never said non union people were uneducated or ignorant. i said union and non union people are basically the same mix. good and bad. when someone refuses to work over 40 hours or helpout someone else because its not in the job specs, its not because they are union, its because they are lazy. every union has differenf rules, in my job for example, if you dont produce, you dont work , period. the lazy people only work a few months out of the year. ive never believed that just because your in a union you cant be fired for not putting up an honest days work. i cant remember the # of people i have told thru the years to pack thier s--t because i didnt have any use for a slacker. this whole thing is about balance. union keeps non union in check and visa versa. anyway i think this whole thing has gone off topic. killing the unions isnt gonna fix our problems.
spiddy, i like what you said.