Brad Artique's manuals - who's wrong???

Danno · Post by **Danno** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:44 pm

check this manual out. I have been trying to collect as many resources as possible, I thought I had everything mapped out just fine, then I run into this guy's stuff, and he has things labeled all funky.

http://www.artigue.com/fiat/Carbs/ADF/weber_adf.pdf

page 5 for example. He has labeled "charcoal cannister top" and "charcoal cannister bottom" The one labeled bottom is the "high/fast Idle sensor connection" isn't it? why would I plug that into my charcoal cannister? the one labeled top is the one I thought was the crankcase ventilation connection.

on page 6 (and 7) he says "charcoal cannister bottom" again for that thing I swear is the high/fast Idle sensor, so this makes me think he isn't doing it on accident!

I'm getting most of my labels from page 10-87 in my service manual. What's the deal here?

I was connecting the float bowl vapor outlet to the bottom of the cannister and this little port up and to the right of the idle mixture screw to the top of the cannister

so, does he have a different adf than I do, or is that manual he made just all botched up (or is mine?) ? I'm really concerned because Brad looks highly respected on other forums and has a lot of experience under his belt, but it just doesn't match with the other stuff I worked hard to figure out!

racydave · Post by **racydave** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:57 pm

I know Bradley put alot of effort into these publications, and had good people proof them. The large problem is that all the reference material he has does not always agree. Bradley was my go to guy when I was researchin my mods. You will sort it all out whenever you get her runnin!

So Cal Mark · Post by **So Cal Mark** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:57 am

the bottom of the cannister should go to the bowl vent, the top cannister port goes to vacuum. That's the only way it makes sense. To connect the cannister bottom port to the fast idle valve ensures that neither will work. That high idle valve hose should go to a vacuum switch

Danno · Post by **Danno** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:40 am

So Cal Mark wrote:the bottom of the cannister should go to the bowl vent, the top cannister port goes to vacuum. That's the only way it makes sense. To connect the cannister bottom port to the fast idle valve ensures that neither will work. That high idle valve hose should go to a vacuum switch

thanks Mark, that's what I thought. I just found his website, so I should probably shoot him of an email asking for advice. Like I said, he has been around forever, and made a lot of contributions, so it freaked me out to hear what I was thinking was all wrong, made me wonder what else I had messed up!

bradartigue · Post by **bradartigue** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:31 pm

Now that I'm a bonafide member, here is the response to Daniel's question that I emailed earlier today:

Daniel,

I tried to create an account and post this on fiatspider.com, but it hasn't been activated yet. I should participate there as well, as I really want to see these cars running and well behaved!

I would love to get a copy of your 32ADFA "Student Workbook" and put it online. I've never seen anything like that, and it's definately more correct than the pile of Weber, Fiat, and really horrible third party manuals I have. I'm looking at a Haynes manual right now that has an ADFA labeled DHSA, so you can get an idea that editing wasn't exactly the thing. The annoying thing is that none of these publications ever provide good schematics on how things were connected.

That aside, the ADF diagram I posted is flat out wrong, and I need to change it. It has never been brought to my attention but I'm glad you've brought it up, because it is so obviously wrong I'm going to slap everyone who reviewed it, including myself. Truthfully though it's hard to know why I labeled it that way, but I was probably looking at a carb installed incorrectly in a car or at a schematic that was just wrong. It happens from time to time, and I don't own any post-1970 Spiders any longer.

The "fuel vapor recirculation system" worked in a few different ways as the car evolved. Since you are converting to an ADF on a 2000cc Spider you'll need to use the method for the 1978 ADFA equipped Spider; which may be identical to the ADHA but I don't have a diagram to confirm it. I hate the 2000cc Carbureted Spider diagrams because it was pretty obvious FIAT spent about 3 hours one saturday putting them together...but I digress.

From the fuel tank is a funky little three way valve. A single vapor line runs from it to the bottom of the charcoal canister. At the top of the canister is a line that runs to a vacuum port on your ADF. As the car runs air is drawn from the fuel tank through the charcoal canister and into the carburetor, creating a constant "cleaning" of the air in the tank. It also is supposed to capture the last burp of fuel that didn't burn when you turn your engine off. Charcoal can be replaced (it is certainly not effective after 20 years or so) with fish tank charcoal or with a new canister (BMW used them as did Alfa), but really I never worry about it unless I smell gas fumes (and I never have, these cars are actually very good at vapor recovery)

There may also a small port on the top of the charcoal canister that connects to a small port on the upper body carburetor. I don't recall on which models this exists, but I remember this connection on one of the 34ADF Spiders I owned a few years back.

I have a new publication online now, http://www.artigue.com/fiat, it's the first one in the list. If I can use your student workbook I can add the "how the charcoal canister thing works" to the carburetor section, or to a new section on emissions controls. You'll certainly receive credit.

Thanks much!

Brad Artigue

Danno · Post by **Danno** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:00 am

Check your email, I'm working on that workbook. Got it from Jon Logan, BTW. Thanks for coming back to clear things up. I already downloaded the new pdf and printed it out!

Danno · Post by **Danno** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:02 am

msn mail is being weird, I'm not sure if that email went through or not here's the message pasted!

Thanks a ton, you've confirmed what I thought, but being a newbie I haven't learned to trust what I "thiink I know" about fiats yet! I have the student workbook halfway scanned and I should be able to finish it and email it to you in pdf format if you'd like! I have the entire scanned version of the shop manual online (minus the diagrams because they are foldouts---i need to get on that) here:
http://www.danielreinhardt.com/fiat/ServiceManual/

quality isn't superb, because the copy I bought on ebay was a crappily copied version and might even be a copy of a copy kind of thing. But it works.....

-Dan

bradartigue · Post by **bradartigue** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:19 pm

Thanks, the scans look good. Notice how poorly even this documents some of the emissions control "features"

I have a document from FIAT (I think in the parts book) that says "we don't make any of this emissions control stuff any more, so copy this page and take it to your testing center as evidence.) Evidence of what?

So Cal Mark · Post by **So Cal Mark** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:09 pm

in Calif, if emission parts are obsolete, a waiver is issued if a car fails the test because of malfunctioning equipment so the parts book would be proof that the parts are unavailable

Danno · Post by **Danno** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:21 am

Brad, I also sent you that student workbook on the 32 adfa, did you get it?

Brad Artique's manuals - who's wrong???

Brad Artique's manuals - who's wrong???

I blame the author