Hi all. I need help. I've got a 1978 Spider that I upgraded to electronic ignition from an '81 Spider. The last 2 days, I've had a no spark problem and need help tracking it down.
I've replaced the coil, control module and pickup unit, and I got it to run. I set the timing, shut it off and went inside to shower. When I came back to test drive, no spark at all. Still getting 12 volts at the coil. Everything's hooked up correctly. What could be the problem? Is there a way to get the coil to spark manually, i.e. to test the control module or the ignition pickup?
No Spark problem driving me to Insanity
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mbouse
where are you seeing no spark?
leaving the coil
entering the distributor
leaving the distributor
at the plugs
is it possible that the magnetic pickup wires were pinched by the dizzy cap and are shorting out?
also, i had a very intermittant similar issue which was solved by replacing the end on the wire that supplied the coil with positive 12 volts (from the ignition switch). snip off that terminal and replaced with a new spade terminal. are you certain the ground wire for the coil is secure at both ends?
and, i always do my test drives BEFORE i shower.
leaving the coil
entering the distributor
leaving the distributor
at the plugs
is it possible that the magnetic pickup wires were pinched by the dizzy cap and are shorting out?
also, i had a very intermittant similar issue which was solved by replacing the end on the wire that supplied the coil with positive 12 volts (from the ignition switch). snip off that terminal and replaced with a new spade terminal. are you certain the ground wire for the coil is secure at both ends?
and, i always do my test drives BEFORE i shower.
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HOLLYWOODSPIDER
I'm getting no spark coming out of the coil at all.
I even tested it by running the coil wire directly to an extra grounded spark plug. Not a spark.
Wires are not pinched. I was very careful when reassembling.
All of the wires/ends in the vicinity of the coil are less than a year old, replaced when I installed the coil originally. Also, when I got it, I installed a brand new control module and ignition sending unit. So those parts were less than a year old when I replaced them again this week. The coil was the original Magnetti Marelli.
Also, when I got the coil unit, it had a condenser attatched. I installed it like that and have driven 10k since then, but my mechanic tells me there's not supposed to be a condenser for the electronic ignition system. Do any of you have a condenser attatched to the b+ side of your coil?
Also, I wanted to shower because my test rive was also my drive to work. I was over an hour late after biking and catching the bus.
Is it possible that the new ignition sender or the new control module would work just for a moment, then go dead?
I even tested it by running the coil wire directly to an extra grounded spark plug. Not a spark.
Wires are not pinched. I was very careful when reassembling.
All of the wires/ends in the vicinity of the coil are less than a year old, replaced when I installed the coil originally. Also, when I got it, I installed a brand new control module and ignition sending unit. So those parts were less than a year old when I replaced them again this week. The coil was the original Magnetti Marelli.
Also, when I got the coil unit, it had a condenser attatched. I installed it like that and have driven 10k since then, but my mechanic tells me there's not supposed to be a condenser for the electronic ignition system. Do any of you have a condenser attatched to the b+ side of your coil?
Also, I wanted to shower because my test rive was also my drive to work. I was over an hour late after biking and catching the bus.
Is it possible that the new ignition sender or the new control module would work just for a moment, then go dead?
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mbouse
anything is possible.
being late for work because you were wrenching....hmmm. I gotta try that excuse. but, yeah. I do rely on a 27 year old vehicle to get me back and forth to work too.
anyway...my 1980 STOCK coil has the STOCK control module and a STOCK condensor still hooked up in their original STOCK locations.
I have replaced the magnetic pickup, which i was strongly advised to carry a spare for; which i do have in the tool box.
just for the heck of it, you do not mention that you get 12 volts to the coil. are you certain that the coil is getting a good current from the ignition switch?
being late for work because you were wrenching....hmmm. I gotta try that excuse. but, yeah. I do rely on a 27 year old vehicle to get me back and forth to work too.
anyway...my 1980 STOCK coil has the STOCK control module and a STOCK condensor still hooked up in their original STOCK locations.
I have replaced the magnetic pickup, which i was strongly advised to carry a spare for; which i do have in the tool box.
just for the heck of it, you do not mention that you get 12 volts to the coil. are you certain that the coil is getting a good current from the ignition switch?
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HOLLYWOODSPIDER
Yes. 12 v at the hot side, and good ground on the other.
Is it possible that my ignition switch could be at fault? Like, if it gives the coil 12v with the key in the "on" position, but cuts power in the "start" position?
Just grasping at straws at this point. To add icing to the cake, my dsl provider is giving me a really hard time with dsl at home, so the only time I have to access this forum is from work, and the car's at home. And it doesn't help that the only hours I have to work on it are hours that the mechanic and parts places are closed.
This sucks.
Is it possible that my ignition switch could be at fault? Like, if it gives the coil 12v with the key in the "on" position, but cuts power in the "start" position?
Just grasping at straws at this point. To add icing to the cake, my dsl provider is giving me a really hard time with dsl at home, so the only time I have to access this forum is from work, and the car's at home. And it doesn't help that the only hours I have to work on it are hours that the mechanic and parts places are closed.
This sucks.
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racydave
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HOLLYWOODSPIDER
I have an ohm meter, and I've tested everything. Everything checks out within spec.
The magnetic pickup wires hopefully are not broken... it's brand new this morning with not more than 2 minutes of running time on it.
I'm leaning heavily toward the ignition switch cutting power to the coil while the starter is turning. I'll check it out after the bus/bike ride home tonight.
I appreciate you guys' help diagnosing. This is the first real problem i've had with the car. I'm better than most at electrical engineering, and this car should be running. It's been down for 2 days now.
The magnetic pickup wires hopefully are not broken... it's brand new this morning with not more than 2 minutes of running time on it.
I'm leaning heavily toward the ignition switch cutting power to the coil while the starter is turning. I'll check it out after the bus/bike ride home tonight.
I appreciate you guys' help diagnosing. This is the first real problem i've had with the car. I'm better than most at electrical engineering, and this car should be running. It's been down for 2 days now.
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Your problem is you don't have a good ground. I had the same issue. I tried the points dist on my 78 for months and had trouble. Every so often, I would drop in the electronic dist and coil and I couldn't get it to spark either.
Finally I took it all apart and tested every component individually. Everything tested good with regard to the specs. While apart I took a dremel with a wire wheel and cleaned every contact surface. Pay special attention to the finned coil bracket. Clean the mounting studs welded to the body, clean the back of the coil bracket where it touches the body. Clean the front surface where the washer and nut make contact. Also clean the small half moon shaped metal strap that holds the coil to the fined coil mount, and wher they mutually touch.
Clean the finned coil bracket where the controle module sits. The back of the controle module is metal and it must make a ground contact with the aluminum coil mount. Many times when the controle module goes bad it expands and releases a white chalky substance that cuts out the ground.
As for the condenser, I could not find in any book or diagram that indicates that it is origional. But I've seen plenty of peoples engine bays while looking at cars on ebay. 8 out of 10 cars have a condenser. However its only purpose is to eliminate radio interference from the spark plug wires. Any set of mag core or supression core wires made within the last 10 years or so have the capability of reducing or canceling the radio interference.
What all my manuals DO tell me about the electronic ignition is that you don't want to ground out the primary terminals. Now the coil bracket itself must be grounded, via direct contact with the body or an auxillary ground wire. But if you put that condenser on one of the bolts that holds the strap that holds the coil, and then connect the lead to one of the primary terminals it might ground out.
Here is a good way to test:
1. Clean all afore mentioned surfaces and use dielectric greese sparingly.
2. Install the coil and associated wiring.
3. Take out all spark plugs
4. take the electronic distributor out of the cam box.
5. connect the white pick up wire to the controle module.
6. Connect a coil wire to the coil and prop the dist end 5 mm from a metal part on the engine.
7. Connect a jumper wire (wire with aligator clips at both ends) from a metal part on the body of the distributor to a metal part on the engine. This will ground the distributor, otherwise you are holding it and it is not grounded.
8. turn the key to the "on" position
hold the distributor with one hand and turn the gear in the direction of the arrow on the distributor body. should be clockwise. you should see a spark at the coil wire.
Timing should be at 0deg with the vac advance disconnected. and 10deg with it connected.
This all sounds good, but I think I have the same problem. I droped in the electronic unit. I started it up, and it was right at 0deg timing. It sounded great, but it was too late and i didn't want to distrub my neighbors reving my engine. It was two days before i could get back to it. When i started it up again, it sounded kind of rough, and no adjustment in timing would make it sound any better.
One thing I did notice about the electronic unit vs the points type unit.
The electronic unit has two different rotors that are avilable. One type has one solid piece of brass as the rotor. The other type uses two pieces of brass connected by what looks like a little resistor. All my manuals say that the electronic rotor button should have a resistance of 500 ohms (don't quote me on that, I'm at work and can't remember the actual number).
The rotor that I have is the solid one, and after cleaning the surfaces where the rotor button make contact and the other end, I only have a very slight resistance. (like .005 ohms) I have ordered one of each design, but they don't get here till the 29th, so I'm not shure if this is my problem.
Matt
Finally I took it all apart and tested every component individually. Everything tested good with regard to the specs. While apart I took a dremel with a wire wheel and cleaned every contact surface. Pay special attention to the finned coil bracket. Clean the mounting studs welded to the body, clean the back of the coil bracket where it touches the body. Clean the front surface where the washer and nut make contact. Also clean the small half moon shaped metal strap that holds the coil to the fined coil mount, and wher they mutually touch.
Clean the finned coil bracket where the controle module sits. The back of the controle module is metal and it must make a ground contact with the aluminum coil mount. Many times when the controle module goes bad it expands and releases a white chalky substance that cuts out the ground.
As for the condenser, I could not find in any book or diagram that indicates that it is origional. But I've seen plenty of peoples engine bays while looking at cars on ebay. 8 out of 10 cars have a condenser. However its only purpose is to eliminate radio interference from the spark plug wires. Any set of mag core or supression core wires made within the last 10 years or so have the capability of reducing or canceling the radio interference.
What all my manuals DO tell me about the electronic ignition is that you don't want to ground out the primary terminals. Now the coil bracket itself must be grounded, via direct contact with the body or an auxillary ground wire. But if you put that condenser on one of the bolts that holds the strap that holds the coil, and then connect the lead to one of the primary terminals it might ground out.
Here is a good way to test:
1. Clean all afore mentioned surfaces and use dielectric greese sparingly.
2. Install the coil and associated wiring.
3. Take out all spark plugs
4. take the electronic distributor out of the cam box.
5. connect the white pick up wire to the controle module.
6. Connect a coil wire to the coil and prop the dist end 5 mm from a metal part on the engine.
7. Connect a jumper wire (wire with aligator clips at both ends) from a metal part on the body of the distributor to a metal part on the engine. This will ground the distributor, otherwise you are holding it and it is not grounded.
8. turn the key to the "on" position
hold the distributor with one hand and turn the gear in the direction of the arrow on the distributor body. should be clockwise. you should see a spark at the coil wire.
Timing should be at 0deg with the vac advance disconnected. and 10deg with it connected.
This all sounds good, but I think I have the same problem. I droped in the electronic unit. I started it up, and it was right at 0deg timing. It sounded great, but it was too late and i didn't want to distrub my neighbors reving my engine. It was two days before i could get back to it. When i started it up again, it sounded kind of rough, and no adjustment in timing would make it sound any better.
One thing I did notice about the electronic unit vs the points type unit.
The electronic unit has two different rotors that are avilable. One type has one solid piece of brass as the rotor. The other type uses two pieces of brass connected by what looks like a little resistor. All my manuals say that the electronic rotor button should have a resistance of 500 ohms (don't quote me on that, I'm at work and can't remember the actual number).
The rotor that I have is the solid one, and after cleaning the surfaces where the rotor button make contact and the other end, I only have a very slight resistance. (like .005 ohms) I have ordered one of each design, but they don't get here till the 29th, so I'm not shure if this is my problem.
Matt
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
I just re read one of your prevoius responses.
You said
Yes. 12 v at the hot side, and good ground on the other.
You should have 12v at both primary terminals with the key on.
And if you connect one lead of the meter to the battery neg and the other lead to the coil bracket mounting you should not have any voltage.
Matt
You said
Yes. 12 v at the hot side, and good ground on the other.
You should have 12v at both primary terminals with the key on.
And if you connect one lead of the meter to the battery neg and the other lead to the coil bracket mounting you should not have any voltage.
Matt
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HOLLYWOODSPIDER
So I figured out the problem, but only after getting stranded during a test drive and having the tow truck driver put 2 huge holes in my radiator tank.
The wire that runs from the coil to the tach is shorted out. I disconnected it with all of my old parts installed and it works. So, problem solved, but it sucks that I already bought all of these new ignition parts. I guess I'll keep them as spares.
Thanks for all of your help.
The wire that runs from the coil to the tach is shorted out. I disconnected it with all of my old parts installed and it works. So, problem solved, but it sucks that I already bought all of these new ignition parts. I guess I'll keep them as spares.
Thanks for all of your help.
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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HOLLYWOODSPIDER
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manoa matt
- Posts: 3442
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm
- Your car is a: 1978 Fiat 124 Spider 1800
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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HOLLYWOODSPIDER
The tow company claims no responsibility for damage loading "exotics" onto the truck. The radiator repair cost me $85, but I knew I had some pinholes and my radiator needed going over. Repairing his holes was only about $30 of the cost.
To add to the frustration... I put the car back together and test drove it last night for a half an hour with no problems. On my 10 minute drive to work this AM, my heater valve burst and soaked my new carpet with antifreze. And my lower radiator hose sprung a leak where it's too close to the smog pump belt. Fix one problem, 3 new ones show up.
I love my car, but it really knows how to push my buttons.
To add to the frustration... I put the car back together and test drove it last night for a half an hour with no problems. On my 10 minute drive to work this AM, my heater valve burst and soaked my new carpet with antifreze. And my lower radiator hose sprung a leak where it's too close to the smog pump belt. Fix one problem, 3 new ones show up.
I love my car, but it really knows how to push my buttons.
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mbouse
I own an exotic?
wow.
did they give you that disclaimer before they loaded it, or when you submitted a claim? And, how are they sure it was when loading, and not UNLOADING the "exotic" ??
Don'tcha just love it when people do not take responsibility for their own actions? As if you authorized them to poke a hole in your vehicle !!
wow.
did they give you that disclaimer before they loaded it, or when you submitted a claim? And, how are they sure it was when loading, and not UNLOADING the "exotic" ??
Don'tcha just love it when people do not take responsibility for their own actions? As if you authorized them to poke a hole in your vehicle !!