FI Starting Problems

[4babycar]

Ok, I have spent this week trying to get my new Free-iat started. We couldn't get it to start at all on Sunday but if you sprayed starter fluid in the intake it would start and run as long as you kept spraying. With this knowledge we began testing the individual components and found that the fuel tank pick-up and return were both clogged. The other night I cleaned the tank and cleared all the lines. Tonight I re-installed the tank and tried to start it. The car would start but would only run for a second, maybe two and then shudder off. You can hear the fuel pump running, fuel returning to the tank and fuel running through the pressure regulator at the fuel rail. So, I am pretty sure I have fuel. It starts so and it runs with starter fluid, so I have spark. When I disconnect the plug for the cold start injector it will not start. The air intake from the air flow meter is connected and tight. So, any ideas?

I suspect the fuel pump is not producing enough pressure. It is a good possibility that it was damaged the other day when the tank connections were so clogged. It is really loud and you get the occasional clicking sound coming from it.

Also, if I remember correctly the fuel pump on FI cars only comes on when the air flow meter flap is open. On this car, the fuel pump immediately comes on, as soon as the key is put in the on position. I am sure this isn't right but I can't decide if it is an owner initiated change or a failure in the system somewhere.

So, anyone have any ideas?

[So Cal Mark]

if the car starts on the cold start injector, you have enough fuel pressure. If you had a gummed up system, expect that the injectors are all stuck. You may have to remove them to get them clean, or try tapping on each of them while you keep the engine running.
As for the pump running constantly, first look inside the afm lid and see if the pump switch is opening with the flap closed

[4babycar]

Thanks Mark.

Can you give me a bit more detail on checking the AFM. The switch you are referring to, is that located under the black cover on the top or within the flow path through the body? I haven't looked thoroughly at one and unfortunately, I don't have ready access to it, now that I am home. If it is under the black cover, is there any secret on accessing it? Thanks.

[So Cal Mark]

it's under the black cover. If the cover doesn't peel off easily, use a razor blade around the lip to cut the rtv sealant. The switch is easily viewed with the cover off. It should be open with the flap closed. The switch should close as soon as the flap moves.
I'd say the pump is less of a problem than the injectors not flowing at this point, but it's nice to have everything working correctly

[spider2081]

In addition to what Mark has suggested, I removed a frozen pump, with the input side pointing down I tapped it on a table top. A lot of dirt came out of the pump. I flushed it out with gas a few times repeating the tapping till no more dirt came out. The pump runs smoothly now.
You could try taking the return line off the fuel rail or the cold start line, then connect another hose up so the fuel runs into a pail. Run the pump on the car to see if the fuel is fresh and clean that is getting to the injectors. I would run it until at least a quart of clean fresh fuel comes out.

[ga.spyder]

Michael,
I ran my car for a year with the pump running with the key turned on.It isnt correct,but it doesnt really hurt anything.Ron helped me straighten it out,it was p/o induced problem with the wiring.Good luck,and check the post by spider2081 in the 'links' section.He posted some excellent stuff on the Bosch f.i.
Craig

[4babycar]

Thanks guys. Regarding the fresh and clean fuel through the pump, it is fresh and clean. The tank has been drained, cleaned and flushed numerous times now and I replaced the fuel filter too. So, I don't think I have a dirty fuel problem, besides dirty/stuck injectors possibly.

Also, I can't seem to remember what I read last night and I am about to head to work.... does the Cold Start injector use the same power and/or ground as the other injectors? I was just wondering if I should check the simple(r) stuff such as grounds first. I know it is unlikely since Fiats NEVER have ground issues but worth a shot?

Thanks again. I was really hoping to get her running last night. This is going to eat at me for the whole week, since I can't work on it!

[pope]

I wouldnt worry about the AFM at this time, because your pump already works and the AFM is not used to start the pump/
To answer the above, the power comes from the dual relay exclusively for the fuel injection system and the system has an overall ground, but individual grounds for individual components come from the ECU.

I was going to ask if you changed the Filter, which you answered as i typed.

[4babycar]

What did I answer?

[pope]

see above.

[ga.spyder]

Michael,thought about you today.I got my 82 out for the first time in a while(50 deg!).It didnt want to start and when it did wouldnt idle.I drove it anyway.Not good,backfiring and throttle lag.Ran it back home and popped the hood.And...I had forgotten to tighten the clamp on the AFM hose Oh well,its running fine now.
Craig

[spider2081]

I removed a fuel rail from a car that had been sitting. I was surprised at the amount of rust that was inside the rail tube. That is why I thought it might be good for you to see clean fuel coming out of the rail. The lines between the filter and the injectors could have had rust or gummy fuel in them.
I believe the grounds you mentioned pass through the ECU and come out of the ECU on pins 5,16,17 and maybe 35. These pins originally would have been connected to the throttle body outboard rear two bolts to complete the ground. A PO might have moved them. For the fuel pump double relay to be working I think the ground from pins 16&17 must be making a fairly good connection.

[4babycar]

Thanks Craig, I have had my 80 out for the past 2 days with the top down - Sunny and 40-45 degrees. The loose air hose was my first thought once it started and then died. I checked and everything is good and tight.

Spider2081 I am sure you are right about the fuel rail. I will have to remove all of that an work on it when I get back.

I thought you guys all said these 82's where great? I haven't been impressed so far. My 81 fired right up after 7+ years of sitting last summer and my 80 fired up after 15 years of sitting with all these troubles! HA! Oh well, it probably has a lot to do with the WV brandy/moonshine they were trying to use for fuel that did it in.

Thanks again for your help and I will keep you posted.

[pooldoctorstl]

You might want to check fuel pressure just to make sure it is ok. Knowing it is right eliminates a lot of guessing and will point you toward the real problem. Most parts stores will rent or loan pressure testers if you don't have one.

[emosfiat]

Hey guys, I am not sure it is related but when my FI had a runability problem I found the connector block on the AFM to be loose. When I took a turn on the screws I began to run perfect. Just a thought. Good luck.


Emo.