81 Spider 2000 ignition switch problem?

[Betis]

I have noticed lately that when I try to turn on the car, turn the key, lights go on and then try to start and nothing. But it only happen sometimes. For example today, got into the car and it happen twice, at the third it started with no issues. Then I tried to recreate the problem many times after that, but all went perfect. Any ideas why? Is the switch going bad, is that a common ocurrence? I have the original Fiat key so i would like to keep this switch if possible. I have the Sipea ignition switch. Does anyone repair them? Anyone has a nice one for sale. Trying to avoid going aftermarket.
Thanks in advance

[RRoller123]

Check all the connections at the first connector downstream of the ignition switch, C31. I did a post about deleting the white plastic housing and making the connections across the connector directly. Search on "the click of death" (I know, it is idiotic).

Also, there are two individual single wire bullet connectors just behind the alternator (driver's side), one red and one brown, heavy wires, that should be cleaned and tightened too. The red one triggers the solenoid to make contact at the starter.

Obviously also check the tightness of the connections on the back of the ignition switch.

This is a VERY common problem. Intermittent click and no start, then it works fine for awhile, then it strands you somewhere. The good news is that you can turn the ignition to the run position and then push start the car.

You have plenty of company!

[azruss]

There are two possible sources for the problem. The 1st was is the ignition switch as stated. Clean the contact on the plug-in from the switch. That will help minimize the problem. From what others have said, rebuilding an OEM switch is a better long term solution than replacing with an aftermarket switch. The issue is the power going to the starter solenoid passes directly through the switch rather than through a relay. Installing a relay in the solenoid circuit takes a big part of the load off the ignition switch. I went to the trouble of building a fused relay set-up for the entire car, so all electrical going through the switch powers only relays. My car has been on the road for 4 years and the OEM ignition switch hasn't gotten any worse. The relay box is added at the C31 plug in and requires no modification to the stock wiring. I did a post about this a few years ago when I built the system.
The 2nd problem is the starter solenoid itself. The solenoid has an internal plate the connects the upper and lower lugs when activated. If the power to the solenoid is compromised, this internal plate does not make good contact and the starter won't turn. Best solution for this is to clean all power connection points: battery+, battery -, battery ground to chassis. upper and lower solenoid lugs and connecting wires. Brown wire on alternator, Engine ground, the 2 upper grounds connected to the intake plenum, solenoid activation wire, all 3 ground hubs. (left and right inner fender, under the dash to right of steering wheel.

[2ndwind]

Betis,
First, follow the above suggestions. I've been having intermittent starting problems with my 1982. I already put in headlight and starter relays but I think it was too late for the original switch. I could get it to start by gently pushing up (toward the dashboard) on the group of wires coming from the switch.
Fortunately, about 5 yrs ago I picked up a used ignition switch with key (required).

While the car was in the body shop for a repair caused by an unnamed offspring of mine, the switch failed altogether. It was pushed around the corner to my professional mechanic (for the few things I don't do myself). After he confirmed it was the switch, I provided him with the used one. The car started fine for 3+ years then I started having the problem again. I had picked up another used switch in the meantime. Today I broke down and "rebuilt" the switch per the instructions given by Chris Coulter with additional background from Ken Dickson (thank you gentlemen) at these sites: https://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/switch/index.html AND
https://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/s ... witch.html

Repairing the switch took about an hour and a half and $1.34 for 2 sets of 4 of 2mm X 20mm screws and nuts delivered to the Fastenal store near me. Pay close attention to the placement of the wires plugged into the back of the switch as the location/orientation of the terminals were in different places on the 2 switches. The wire colors should match the terminal numbers, not the locations. Happily, my repaired switch worked flawlessly as I ran many errands today.

It appears there are two styles of internals for the switches. The one I repaired and installed was identical to Chris Courter's directions. The one I pulled out (and opened up without marking the alignment, dang!)) is similar but with 3 important differences 1.) I already mentioned the location/orientation issue above. 2.) The center rivet does not attach all three "disks" only the middle and top (white) disc. 3) the style of small "plungers" do not have springs connected to them (this is good) but they are smaller (this is bad, I think I lost one. Update: Nope, there were only 3).

My theory is that the second design is a later design (FIAT 2000?). I have the original failed switch, removed by the mechanic and will rebuild tomorrow. I have to remove all the excess solder from the terminals first. If you can't see the hole in the center of the terminal you have to keep removing solder to get the terminal out.

UPDATE: I took apart my original ignition switch today AND I remembered to mark the alignment of all three disks first! What's cool is you don't have to drill out the center rivet at all. BUT you must have marked the alignment or it still won't work. If the white disk is misaligned, a plunger can get caught in a hole, locking up the white disk altogether. Follow most of Chris Coulter's instructions except for the following:

I don't recommend pulling all the parts out at once as there is potential for putting them back incorrectly. Just pull apart, repair, and put back, one set at a time. Sometimes there is an UNUSED space for another contact and corresponding slot for a terminal. So pulling EVERYTHING apart at once might get one confused and putting parts where they weren't unless you take pictures of every step you take.

It is fascinating how some of the internal parts are made from either all brass, or steel with brass contacts attached, depending on the ignition. It seems these two (my original and the 1st replacement) were made with the same basic design at around the same time.

More than half my contact points were burnt. Some were easily filed with a tiny, fine file, others were scavenged from my (now) parts ignition.

When replacing the double terminal into the center slots, orient the cutout to allow for a plunger to press the contact bar.

When reassembling, remember to realign the disks with the mark you made, hold the assembly on its side so the plungers don't fall out, orient the plungers with the flat part toward the spring contacts and cone toward the white disk. Put the plungers in the appropriate holes of the upper disk which will allow them to align with the center of each contact strip.

This time I was able to use 2/3 of the big cir-clip when putting the switch back into the metal housing. Just look at the back for a bit and you will notice you can squeeze it past the two white wires AND past the nut that lines up with an opening in the housing.

I tried uploading pictures according to the updated directions. I used to be able to do this but both I and my computer have aged. For pictures, you can e-mail me at remsleep01@gmail(dot com), that is a zero1 not O1.

Steve

[RRoller123]

Has anyone done a "push to start" solution for these cars? Could be easily done, with a disable switch upstream of it for safety.

[zachmac]

That would only replace the last position of the ignition switch, the spring loaded hot to starter position. You'd still need an on / off switch for all the switched components off of the first switch position. You could of course retrofit a keyless go system that they sell aftermarket but now we are talking big bucks in comparison to just fixing the existing switch of even replacing it.

[RRoller123]

The "ON" ignition switch has never been a problem on my car (maybe others have had that issue), and my car is wired so that the fuel pump is "ON" when the ignition is "RUN".

It may make sense to just bypass the ignition switch for the starter altogether. Just need an enable/disable switch ahead of the push to start button. I would certainly still do this with a relay.

Just a thought.

[85redpini]

The "ON" ignition switch has never been a problem on my car (maybe others have had that issue), and my car is wired so that the fuel pump is "ON" when the ignition is "RUN".

It may make sense to just bypass the ignition switch for the starter altogether. Just need an enable/disable switch ahead of the push to start button. I would certainly still do this with a relay.

Just a thought.

please set up a selfie camera to send me a picture of your face when you realize you cant turn the wheel and hit your neighbors house.

[RRoller123]

That is beyond odd.....

Putting the ignition in "ON" releases the steering lock. Merely talking about the single wire solenoid engagement, which can be done with a momentary push button versus the momentary ignition switch quite easily.

Here, like this: https://www.amazon.com/iJDMTOY-Backgrou ... art+Button

Or more fancy, like this, with a disable and probably put in a relay to drive the solenoid: https://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Racing-Ig ... art+Button

Pete

[RRoller123]

That would only replace the last position of the ignition switch, the spring loaded hot to starter position. You'd still need an on / off switch for all the switched components off of the first switch position. You could of course retrofit a keyless go system that they sell aftermarket but now we are talking big bucks in comparison to just fixing the existing switch of even replacing it.

Agreed. That's exactly where the problem in my ignition switch is. For now....

[zachmac]

please set up a selfie camera to send me a picture of your face when you realize you cant turn the wheel and hit your neighbors house.[/quote]

85 redpini, you seem to have completely overlooked the start switch won't start the car unless the ignition system is also powered which is still performed by the key being in run, which unlocks the steering wheel. Duh!

Wouldn't adding the relay without the extra start button solve most all the problems? The ignition switch failures are due to the large current flow when starting. Add a starter relay (like later cars came from the factory) and the problems should be solved.

[RRoller123]

"Wouldn't adding the relay without the extra start button solve most all the problems? The ignition switch failures are due to the large current flow when starting. Add a starter relay (like later cars came from the factory) and the problems should be solved."

Yep. I suppose one could just wire the push button in parallel with the existing ignition switch and use either one to fire the solenoid. Kinda like an on demand hot wire. When did they start putting in the starter solenoid relay? My '80 does not have it.

[zachmac]

When did they start putting in the starter solenoid relay? My '80 does not have it.

Must have been 81 for the relay as I also had an 80 that didn't have it and Brad Artigue's electrical drawings show one starting in 81.

Push to start button would look cool. Very "race car".

[spider2081]

I could be wrong but I think the starter solenoid relay is installed with automatic transmissions as part of the only start in park safety feature.

[ChrisK]

Not trying to take over this thread, but my 1979 Spider has had a similar problem. Mine too happens intermittently with no seeming rhyme or reason. I replaced the entire starter and solenoid 4 years ago or so with a rebuilt unit that probably has less than 10,000 miles on it. When the car doesn't start, it doesn't click or anything. Also, a failed start tends to kill all the dash lights too. When the ignition is switched to off and then back to power, I get all the lights on my dash again. If the car starts properly then there is no power loss to the dash. Oddly enough, I find that when the car wont start it doesn't always kill power to the dash. Do any of these symptoms point toward on part of the electrical system. I would appreciate any additional advice to all the good stuff provide above!