Cross Brace Support

[RRoller123]

Well this is a little off beat, but I have been pondering how it might be possible to put a cross brace into the 2L FI Spider engine compartment. These cars flex a lot and it would likely really help. I see so many of these at the various shows, and about 50% of them are fabricated and installed by the owners, which I think is interesting, and a higher percentage than I would have expected. Every one of the owners I speak with rave about the positive effects, especially when they are able to go directly from top shock mount to top shock mount. Our shocks sit so low that this is not possible, but some sort of stiffening IS.

I will say that, so far, I don't see any way to do it properly on the 2L FI car, there just doesn't seem to be enough room. But I think a discussion on this topic would be really interesting.

So here is my outside the box idea: Use the HOOD as the cross brace. It is now a simple 3 point brace, from the 2 front hinge points to the center latch mechanism, but obviously in its current hardware form it doesn't do much of anything to stiffen up the front. The two corners at the windshield dance like a raver on every bump. How about adding windshield corner hardware and maybe some reinforcing metal to the underside of the hood? It may actually not even need it, as the hood is pretty strong as it is.

What would be needed is actual locking hardware, not just the common loose fitting pins/rings safety setup that is sometimes used to hold hoods closed. A positive locking hardware system that rigidly holds the hood down, tightly, at the windshield corners would do the trick. And of course it has to look good and provide easy access. Might need some sort of stronger hinge hardware too?

I think the idea has some merit, and would be interested in your thoughts. Does anyone know of a hardware system that would accomplish this?

Pete

[aj81spider]

The previous owner of my 81 had fabricated a bar that went from fender to fender.



I'm not sure it actually stiffened anything, although he claimed it did wonders (he was pretty unreliable in other claims about the car - so you can discount that one too). I took it out because it made the engine a pain to work on. I still have it, and would gladly entertain anyone's offer for it!

[DieselSpider]

AJ - Ship it to me with $20 for my trouble and I'll take care of it for you.

[81SPIDERMATT]

ok .... I have heard talk about a skid plate x.member combo thing in the past that would stiffen and help with frame cracking ... but don't think it would address the shock towers .... aj81 has what I think would be the closest to what I want that I have seen if I was looking for a brace ..... I have also read that going from shock tower to firewall then also to front upper cross member may be an option to help the collapsing shock towers .... up and over the engine cross brace I think would be best but have not seen it done yet .... heard talk of maybe a mountain bike builder could build something light and strong ..maybe .... I am not smart enough to know what type and strength of material would be needed to build a brace that would attach at shock tops and go up and over ..... as someone who rebuilt his whole front end chasing bad tire wear only to find out is was a frame machine that would eventually fix my sagging fiat ... literally pulled the frame back past spec a bit so I would have some wiggle room at the alignment shop .... I would be vary interested to hear the latest and greatest ideas .... been quite a while since this has been brought up by my memory .... Matt

outside box hood idea is a good conversation starter for sure .... here is my outside the box response .... secure the corners like you said ... then partial braces coming from shock towers would click into some type of receiver on the hood and use the hood as the middle part of the brace and as you tighten down the hood it locks in the cross brace

[RRoller123]

I wasn't even thinking of connecting the hood to the shocks, just using the hood as a rigid/stressed element, versus the floating piece of baggage it is now! But that is a great idea. Likely a little too mechanically complicated though..

The cross brace on AJ's car looks pretty good, but I think it attached only to the fenders, which probably explains why it doesn't seem to do anything. Did you see any change after pulling it? Or did you just remove it immediately upon getting the car?

[aj81spider]

I just pulled it right after buying the car.

[RRoller123]

The brace in front of the radiator is pretty strong, the firewall is pretty strong, but it all creates a rectangular box section that flexes like crazy on bumps. The cross brace in your pic probably wouldn't do too much to stop that, but I would be curious to see if it works. I didn't think there was enough clearance across the top of the belt cover.

Need to triangulate, which I think treating the hood as a rigid structural member would probably do.

[81SPIDERMATT]

it is my understanding that the mystery brace in my mind would have to connect to the shock tops or darn near them as the only reason for the brace is to stop the collapsing of the towers over time .... when asked at the frame shop about my fix and how long it would last ? he said come back in 10 or 15 years and we will check it again .... I too am curious if aj81 saw any change or if any of us would with such a brace .... one of those I wonder things that I probably will never know

edit ... you guys are too quick

[vandor]

The brace would not have to go all the way down to the shocks, just to the top of the shock tower, which is just 3-4" below the hood line.
The brace in the pic is too far forward, it needs to attach to the body in line with the shock tower.

[joelittel]

Well this is a little off beat, but I have been pondering how it might be possible to put a cross brace into the 2L FI Spider engine compartment. These cars flex a lot and it would likely really help. I see so many of these at the various shows, and about 50% of them are fabricated and installed by the owners, which I think is interesting, and a higher percentage than I would have expected. Every one of the owners I speak with rave about the positive effects, especially when they are able to go directly from top shock mount to top shock mount. Our shocks sit so low that this is not possible, but some sort of stiffening IS.

I will say that, so far, I don't see any way to do it properly on the 2L FI car, there just doesn't seem to be enough room. But I think a discussion on this topic would be really interesting.

So here is my outside the box idea: Use the HOOD as the cross brace. It is now a simple 3 point brace, from the 2 front hinge points to the center latch mechanism, but obviously in its current hardware form it doesn't do much of anything to stiffen up the front. The two corners at the windshield dance like a raver on every bump. How about adding windshield corner hardware and maybe some reinforcing metal to the underside of the hood? It may actually not even need it, as the hood is pretty strong as it is.

What would be needed is actual locking hardware, not just the common loose fitting pins/rings safety setup that is sometimes used to hold hoods closed. A positive locking hardware system that rigidly holds the hood down, tightly, at the windshield corners would do the trick. And of course it has to look good and provide easy access. Might need some sort of stronger hinge hardware too?

I think the idea has some merit, and would be interested in your thoughts. Does anyone know of a hardware system that would accomplish this?

Pete

Maybe there's something in the marine hardware category that would do the trick.

[joelittel]

Something similar to this but not as utilitarian.

https://jet.com/product/detail/4a14bbfb ... &gclsrc=ds

[Odoyle]

Here are two examples which I think demonstrate some sort of bracing support, first one is a 328 GTS and the second is a shot of the suspension on a Gr. 4 124 Rally car.

A reaction link like this may help mitigate the amount of engine vibration during operation


Finding good shots of the 124 Gr. 4 suspension isn't easy, but this photo shows a number of modifications which many of us desire, it looks like the sway bar is secured to the front end by an additional support beam welded to the frame rails, it also looks like the sway bar extends farther past its usual mounting point on the lower control arm. Also, if you also look closely at where the crossmember meets the lower control arm, its looks like there is some cast iron brace which links the upper control arm to the crossmember.


I'm not sure how realistic upgrades like this might be, but I hope gets people thinking, it certainly has me thinking.

[v6spider]

The brace would not have to go all the way down to the shocks, just to the top of the shock tower, which is just 3-4" below the hood line.
The brace in the pic is too far forward, it needs to attach to the body in line with the shock tower.

Exactly what I'm thinking too! It needs to attach at where the top of the shock tower connects to the body. That cross brace isn't doing anything..

Cheers!
Rob

[ORFORD2004]

To me that engine is a FWD

[DieselSpider]

To me that engine is a FWD

Snubber bar on a rear mid engine Ferrari. On top it can make it easier to unhook and pivot the engine for changing spark plugs on cars where the engine bay is tight. On the 124 I would not put one up top without completely boxing the engine compartment first.