Consequences of bad timing?

[burlybryan]

I've been slowly working through the non functioning and overdue maintenance items on my new-to-me '82 FI 2000. Since I got it, it's been really hard to start when cold (cranks for a long time and sputters) and once started idles poorly and misses. The car has plenty of pep and drives fine. Yesterday I got around to checking timing. To my surprise it was 25º to 30º BTDC!

I adjusted to 10º and the idle smoothed out to be perfect. Funny though, the car is even harder to start cold now - this morning it took 15 to 20 cranks to get it to catch.

Anyway, I'm wondering what damage might there be from running with the timing so off? It's got a ton of lifter/valve clatter from both intake and exhaust cams - which hasn't gotten better or worse since resetting the timing. The PO of the car hasn't used it much in the past few years, but I have no idea how much it's been run like this.

Thanks for any thoughts.

[So Cal Mark]

overadvanced timing can cause detonation which can damage pistons, rings and head gaskets.

[narfire]

If it is taking that long to start, perhaps check the plugs.... if good then the cold start injector might not be squirting the little bit of fuel at start up. Take the start valve off and place it in a can or something or have an assistant put the end in a clean shop rag and crank the car when cold. If it is wet then it works, if not..why? several things, the thermotime switch might not have a good conection (real pita spot under the intake runners) watch your fingers if wearing a ring as it could short if you make contact with the starter leads. (blister for couple of days ) The injector might not be getting power..Noids light? Thermo time switches I found are fairly bomb proof but they do pack it in time to time, perhaps someone here parting a FI might have one for sale.
If you have a set of feeler guages, check the clearances on the valves, ex. side only takes a few minutes and intake the same once you back off the intake plenum enought to lift the cam tower cover off. I'd think they would be close to spec if they have not been fiddled with but no harm in having a look,then you know what they truly are.
I read some where that some zinc additive to the oil might quiet them down a bit.
I put a set of Mark's 274 FI cams on and not only is the performance better, they are quieter as the clearances are around 10 thou.
Chris

[burlybryan]

Checked the cold start injector today and it is not firing. No voltage so I'm at a loss on that. Suppose checking the thermo time switch.

Checked compression (cold) and getting 140 - 150 across so it would seem compression is ok.

Also pulled the cam covers (I'm not sure they've ever been off - decrepit cork gaskets), but need to get a big ass 38mm socket to rotate the crank to check all of them. The #3 exhaust tappet clearance was at the max of the limit but not beyond it.

[majicwrench]

At 25-30 deg BTDC you would have been having real issues. I do not know the procedure for checking timing on a 82 FI rig, but I would guess, no offense, that you did not do something correctly.

Hard starting..... fuel pressure bleeding off can cause that issue. And/or pull cold start valve and watch it spray when cranked cold.
With the plugs out and the car in gear you can push car forward/back to get cams to rotate.
Keith

[burlybryan]

majic, it's certainly possible I didn't test the timing right since I haven't timed a spider and it's been a few years since I timed my old Saabs (which were a lot easier to see). What I did was to find the notch (small and square, not v-shaped) on the inside edge of the large pulley on the crank. Seemed weird that it would be on the inside edge since it's obscured by the toothed bracket, but I transfered the line to the front/outside edge. Hooked the inductor on the #1 wire. With the battery in back, I used my fully charged boat battery for power. Car was fully warm. Please advise any errors.

I've wondered about fuel pressure leaking down, but haven't hooked up a gauge yet. There is fuel in the lines - when I pulled the cold start injector I removed the hose and it had fuel - but it was not pressurized. Don't know what to check beyond that. The cold start injector is not spraying when cranked cold so this is the likely first issue to run down.

Thanks for the reminder of moving the car with plugs out. I forgot that I used to jack up the front right tire on my Saab 900's and turn it to rotate the engine.

[narfire]

What I did was to find the notch (small and square, not v-shaped) on the inside edge of the large pulley on the crank

That is the timing mark. Will/should line up with the timing pointer on the block. That is a little pointer affair under the water pump. The top point is 0deg and the crank mark should line up with that point.
When that is done ,you'll see a raised rib on the front of the cam towers. If the metal shields are missing, you'll see holes in the cam wheels that will line up with the ribs. If not then you will be popping the belt off/loosening and re-installing to have the holes line up and the mark on the crank at the 0 pointer. If the shields are in place I believe Csaba mentioned there are rubber grommits that will pop out of the shield at the raised rib point.
OK all lined up now... is the rotor in the cap about to cross the #4 pin in the rotor cap? got that done?,now perhaps have an assistant crank while you slightly twist the cap untill she fires and runs kinda smooth. You should be putting a light on it to get the 10 deg btdc as just the slightest twist will move the timing 10-15 deg or more.
I pull 3 plugs and can move the engine with the water pump and alt belt, but I pad the fender well first.

"The cold start injector is not spraying when cranked cold so this is the likely first issue to run down."
Hope it is just a ground, perhaps someone nearby has a spare thermotime switch you could try.
Chris

[burlybryan]

Narfire,

I pulled the timing belt cover and verified that at 0º both cam sprocket holes line up exactly with the pointers - and the dist. is at #4 on the rotor. Everything is as it should be and the engine was in fact extremely advanced. Weird. As I said, before I tore into it re-timing to 10º smoothed out the idle immensely.

Thanks for the assistance everyone.

Bryan