springs

[geert]

hello,
i would like to have your advise concerning cutting springs.

I read what is on the forum about it ; but would like your opinion.

car : spider 1977-78, 1800cc, spring colour code blue-greenish, dampers yellow koni sport, the springs seems fine.

question : wouild I improve handling by cutting the springs? points to considder :
1/ handling , 2/ground clearance , 3/ looks

Do I have too much respect for the Italian engineers when I think that they knew best by taking that kind of spring en lenght or was it a quick move to make the car higher for legislation ?

The purpose is to have a car to use often on 'non-perfect" roads on regularity "rallye".

As said the famous punk-singer (or was it a poet) Wreckless Erick : Should I cut or should I not ?
And if cutting, how much ?

With the front suspension out, it's now or never.

thanks in advance, Geert.

[MNspiderman]

If you take out 1 full revolution then you still have the same soft suspension, your now just 1"-2"s closer to bottoming out all the time. As for the Italian engineers, they were good back in the 70's. Its just that when those cars got sent to the USA they didn't have the same springs and bumpers. They had to meet US regulations. Thats why you go with the shorter/stiffer springs which are priced pretty reasonable.

[maytag]

If you take out 1 full revolution then you still have the same soft suspension, your now just 1"-2"s closer to bottoming out all the time. As for the Italian engineers, they were good back in the 70's. Its just that when those cars got sent to the USA they didn't have the same springs and bumpers. They had to meet US regulations. Thats why you go with the shorter/stiffer springs which are priced pretty reasonable.

This isn't exactly correct.
cutting coils WILL INDEED affect the ride.
follow me here:
Imagine a spring with 10 coils, with a 200 pound spring rate. If you put 200 pounds on it, the spring deflects 1". So each coil has compressed 1/10th of an inch.
now cut that spring in half. Put the same 200 pound weight on it. The coils still deflect 1/10th of an inch each, but now your total spring deflection is only 1/2". this makes your new srping rate 400lbs, not 200.

Are ya with me?

So to answer the original posters' questions: "maybe"

The spring rate can stand to be a little stiffer. Yes, this can be accomplished via cutting coils.
The cornering ability of the car can also be improved by lowering the center of gravity. This can ALSO be accomplished via cutting coils.
But this is not a question of more is better.
If you lower the car enough that you hit bump stops when the coils compress, then you've HURT the ride AND the cornering ability.
There's also a consideration to be made if you lower the front to the point that the A-arms are "past center" at static, meaning they point up instead of down. Think of it as "hanging" the car, rather than "suspending" it. Personally, I have not worked-out all of the geometry in my own head on this, nor have I heard any of the smarter guys give a definitive answer on it, but it always seems to come up. So take it for what it's worth.

also: don't underestimate the need for your shocks to be up to the task of your newly increased spring rate!

[MNspiderman]

Hay Maytag.
Thats exactly what i was saying. except without all the gory details.

[geert]

@ Maytag, @MNSpiderman : thanks for your answers.
I'll leave the springs as they are.

groeten, geert.

[BEEK]

cutting stock springs is not a real problem. take 1 effective coil off and you will increase spring rate and lower the car. cut the spring with a sawzall or a die grinder, not a torch. you will have to determine the amount you wish to cut off. start with 1/2 coil then check the rideheight, and do it again if its not what you are looking for. i have driven many spiders with cut stock springs, i have used aftermarket springs as well. personally i cant tell any difference between cut stock and "performance' springs for street use. racing application, thats another story alltogether. i personally recomend getting the lower control arms level at ride height. ball joint even with the inner pin. the camber gain and such is effected more after this becomes an upward angle to the ball joint. again ive seen spiders with more than 2" of raise in the lower balljoint. the crossomember and oil pan are very vunerable at this time though. but the cars handled very well. i dont recomend this though. i have also put adjustable spring perches in the front of a few spiders cut the springs alot for stiffness and was able to adjust the ride height infantly. just some thoughts

[maytag]

... i have driven many spiders with cut stock springs, i have used aftermarket springs as well. personally i cant tell any difference between cut stock and "performance' springs for street use. racing application, thats another story alltogether. i personally recomend getting the lower control arms level at ride height. ball joint even with the inner pin.

Good stuff here, BEEK!

So what DO you find works best for racing?

And when you say "recomend getting the lower control arms level at ride height", you're talking static/at rest, right? So they will of course become an upward angle under compression. Does that cause any strange issues?

[BEEK]

it causes camber gain, camber gain is important to the handeling. with static camber at -.5deg you might see -2.0 under hard compression of the suspension. which will make the car handle better thru hard turns. tire wear will accelerate, but hard cornering comes with a price. there are a few schools of thought on spring rates. every racer you talk to will give you a different opion on rates and chassis settings. every driver wants something different in the handeling package. in my opinion, the 124 has a great front suspension. me personally , on my own cars i relocate the front bump stops and put adjustable urathane bumpers.replace the bushings with urethane, use lower ball joints in both applications. it gives a slightly taller spindle height and accelerates the camber gain. i rework the shock towers to accept adjustable spring perches. on the cars i dont convert to coil over. for the street i use 300lb ft springs 5" diameter , on the coil over setups i use 250lb springs. 1" front sway bar with urethane bushings. again you might ask 20 different people and get 25 different answers none of them wrong just different theories.

[htchevyii]

Good stuff Beek, where do you buy your springs and what length?

[meangreenspider]

There is a post on here with a lot of information and feedback. If you search "cutting springs" you will find it.

[Daniel]

Hi Geert

Here is what i did to mine its a 79 cut 1 coil off the front the rears 1 and half coils off at first was still a bit taller
in the rear so i cut some more to get a level stance . I think it ended up about 1 and 3/4 i'd say try 1 and half at first
if your looking for a level profile maybe you want a higher rear some people do ? but i would take your time place the springs back in without the shocks and see how it sits cut a little more off the spring till you end up where you like it .

My front Arms were very close to Parallel with the ground off by just a few degrees, my handling improved a great deal
much tighter in the turns less body roll . I did slow down more for dips and speed bumps to make sure i didnt hit the
oil pan !

[beachboy]

Daniel,
Looks great, what is the size of rim and tire combination that you have there. Looks like a 15" or 16"?

[Daniel]

The wheels are 15x7 inch same size and the Rota wheels not sure about the off set
differences between them tires were 195/50/15s no rubbing issues .