Carb/Fuel Filter/Cleaning Tips

[maytag]

wrench-
2) Where on the carb is the float bowl?

The float bowl is the large-ish square-ish looking part of the carb body, with no venturis... not sure what you are wanting to accomplish with knowing that. ?

...also, when going DOWNHILL, for some reason, it began backfiring.

yup, I thought so.
I really don;t think this is a fuel / carb issue.
It sounds more like cam-timing / valvetrain related to me. best bet: slipped the timing belt. When was it replaced? (ever?)

[OaklandSpider]

maytag-
hmmmm....didn't think of the issues you mentioned.
timing belt-not touched since I've owned the car (about 1 year)
The reason I thought it was a clog/fuel issue was due to the fact that I ran low on gas, and then it died (tank not pulled/cleaned either since I've owned it), leading me to believe junk from the depths of the tank surfaced and clogged it...
I'm on my way to try the fuel lines...
I'll be in touch,
Peter

[OaklandSpider]

maytag-wrench-
getting plenty of fuel to the carb...
I'll post some photos of the cam pulleys/markings in a bit...looks like they're pretty off, now that I look.
I'll keep y'all posted...
Peter

[OaklandSpider]

maytag...I think you're on to something.
View some pics of cam marks, and how off they are.
Not easy to get a good photo, but I think you'll get the idea.
http://picasaweb.google.com/peterboyd75/CamPulleysmarks#[/url]
So, what's next?
Funny how this post has evolved/devolved....
Peter

[maytag]

It's hard for me to see what we're looking at specifically there.
I want to get some input here from the Fiat Gurus, who will be more informed on the particulars of this motor (my knowledge is more general, coming from many, many various cars & bikes, rather than specific to the Fiat) but I would say you need to get those marks lined-up!
How's the belt tension?

Here's the thing: A timing belt is relatively inexpensive. Get a new one, and line-up those marks per your repair manual's procedures. Typically, you'll put the motor at TDC on #1, and the cam marks should line-up on the pointers. But read the book, or get Magic or someone else to chime-in here. (Or wait 'til this evening, and I'll dig-out my manual and review it for ya)

The fortunate thing for you (if indeed we've identified the problem, as it appears we have) is that this motor is not an interference motor! You likely will not have damaged anything.

[OaklandSpider]

maytag-
belt tension appears good.
sorry about the last post...I failed to mention:
the 'factory' pulley marks are off...and the painted, white stripes by PO/previous mechanic are off as well. Both are visible in the photo, and both are visibly off...kind of hard to tell, due to the angle of the photo/light.
Yes, they are off. And yes, I'm hoping this is the problem and that no damage has been done to the engine...
I'll do some research on my end as well...
Thanks for the insight...
Peter

[maytag]

Okay;
I just scanned-in the relevant section from my Haynes book (Chapter 1/Engine; Section 9/Timing belt removal, refitting & adjustment)
see below.



Hope this helps! Based on what the book is showing, I'd say you've found your culprit.
My suggestion: before you take the timing cover off the motor, put the crank at TDC, and then mark it on something that will NOT be removed.... then you can cut-off the old belt, line-up the cams and install the new one.

I would bet a steak dinner that this fixes the problem.

[majicwrench]

Hard to see what is going on from those pics, did you have the crank at TDC?? Belt appears OK, it is not often that belts actually slip a few teeth. Hmmmmm.
How did you decide engine was at TDC to check cam timing??
I would NOT cut off old belt, I would loosen tensioner as per the book. The book scanned above seems to indicate that slackening the two nuts will slacken the belt, that is not correct, IMO.

You said you changed a condensor that you noticed was bad?? How did you decide it was bad??

Not convinced cam timing is off. This is all way too vague.
Good luck,
Keith

[So Cal Mark]

I haven't kept up with this thread; I thought it was about general cleaning tips. Hadn't realized it morphed into a particular problem. With the angle of the camera, the pics are useless to determine cam timing. Especially without knowing if the engine is at tdc. But, it appears you have the plastic cam pulleys. I'd suggest you replace them with the metal pulleys. I've seen the center hub of the plastic pulley come loose, causing not only a knocking noise but incorrect timing.

[maytag]

...it is not often that belts actually slip a few teeth. Hmmmmm.

I don't disagree, but the symptoms do NOT point to carburetion, or fuel supply. you know the old add-age about eliminating the impossible; the improbable... yadda-yadda....

I would NOT cut off old belt, I would loosen tensioner as per the book.

Why not? Unless he is still trying to determine whether or not it IS timed properly.... or he wants to save the belt for some reason.

Not convinced cam timing is off. This is all way too vague.
Good luck,
Keith

yes, it's pretty unclear; but it's going to be, unless you're there, isn't it? I think he (Okland spider) is doing a good job following the suggestions we've given him, and reporting back. We've eliminated some things as he's done this... what other suggestions would you send his way?

[So Cal Mark]

I don't recommend cutting off belts either. Remove them the same way you'd install them. That way you find potential problems during disassembly rather than assembly. It's always best to determine causes of problems before you put it back together

[majicwrench]

Why would you CUT the belt off?? How are you going to install the new one?? Just force it over the tensioner??
You need to loosen the tensioner, take the tension off the old belt, and remove belt.
But all that is IF you actually need to replace the belt, which at this point I would not do.

Suggestions, this gets tough, we have heard that car won't go over 25mph, and have heard engine has good torque to 3k, which should get it WAY above 25mph, have had all sorts of parts changed...condensors?? Hoses??? Looking for fuel filters?? Wondering where the float bowl is??

I absolutely HATE to guess, either on this board or in my shop, but I suspect Oakland Spider is on the right track from the git-go, methinks something is wrong with the fuel system. My 72 is FOREVER plugging the idle circuit and then it runs like crap. ( have flushed/sealed tank and cleaned lines, we will see next summer!) I don't have any direct suggestions because honestly I don't think, with all due respect, that this is gonna be anything other than a backyard/shotgun debacle.
There are qualified, honest mechanics out there, sometimes hard to find, that would likely make pretty short work of this problem.
Keith

[maytag]

Okay y'all... I don't wanna get caught-up here in another one of these. "Cut the Belt off"..... I can't figure-out why you care, as long as the stipulations that I laid-out previously are met: a) we know we're replacing the belt, b) we know the cams don;t line up.

Sure. Loosen it all up to remove the belt. That's fine too. You're right, you're gonna loosen it all up eventually anyway... so why do you care if it gets cut off? Methinks this smells of a case of "this is the right way; just because I said so". in reality, I have never cut one off... it's more of a figurative sort of "be done with it already"..... but I honestly can't see why you care so much.

Magic: I think it's funny that you use the book to point-out the "correct procedure" when it agrees with you (removing the belt), but then you say the book is wrong when it disagrees with you (slackening via two bolts).

And there may well be some "competent mechanics" out there. I've yet to find one that knows how, and cares, too. There's way too much apathy out there. So some of us would prefer to do our own work. And some (like Oklandspider) have a learning curve that is in a different place than yours, or mine. Don't discourage him though. Part of the fun of owning an enthusiast car like this is the tinkering. Let us all learn as we go? And let's not get so caught-up in the "only qualified mechanics / engineers should be mechanic-ing / engineering on these cars" debate? (I just LOVE to stir the pot)

That being said: I'm confident I'm as smart as the next guy (you, Magic, for instance ), and I don't think he's dealing with a fuel supply issue here at all. You keep saying it's too vague to tell... but you keep steering him back to the same place.... even after all his checks (that you suggested, remember) came back 'passing'. Now, I'm by no means anywhere near "certain".... because as you say, there is NOT enough information. So I'm all about helping him chase down that road, or any other that seems to fit the symptoms.

It's too bad he's not "SaltLake-Spider", instead of "Okland spider".... 'cuz I could be more help then!

[majicwrench]

Maytag,
I didn't use the book to point out the correct procedure to remove the belt. I did say to loosen tensioner as per the book. I did point out what seems to be something incorrect in the book. I care, cause there is a right way, and a wrong way to do things. Cutting belts off is not the right way to do things.

I too am confident that you, Maytag, are a very bright guy ( you drive a Fiat, right??). I just honestly think, that if someone doesn't know what a fuel bowl is, or where it is, he/she is in for a tough time fixing a Fiat. Yes, we all need to learn. I have lots to learn, just ask my wife. Or my ex-wife.

I was not trying to steer him anywhere, that is why I offered no other suggestions as to testing. I said I SUSPECT that is where his problem lies, and I do, and you think otherwise. Methinks we have a difference of opinion, which is cool with me.

Oakland Spider, I truly wish you the best of luck and applaud you for attempting something tough!! Read and study, there is a TON of good info on this site and others, that will explain in detail how all of this, carbs, T-belts, etc, works.

Again, good luck!!
Keith

.

[OaklandSpider]

Thanks for all the interest/time taken on your posts/advice/replies...all of them, albeit different in opinion and causal relationship, are appreciated. I just want the car running the way it was before the issue surfaced...and to have learned something in the process as to why, so the next time it reappears, I'll be spending more time wrenching and less time in front of the computer.
So:
the condensor- after reading kilrwail's post about the ignition lead (kind of got overlooked in the whole process...sorry about that. Peter has been unfailingly kind, informative and patient with my novice questions), I noticed that the condensor had a nick in the cord, with some of the wire becoming exposed. I did look it over briefly, and all appeared proper. When I grabbed the condensor cord and turned it over, the cut/nick presented itself. Replacing it made some running improvements.
the fuel line/bottle trick- had my girlfriend crank the engine (ignition disabled, fuel line in a plastic bottle, safety glasses ON) and lots of apparently clean fuel filled the bottle. I was honestly surprised at how much fuel was pumped into the bottle.
the cam marks- way off. I know it's hard to see from the photos, but both the white, painted marks are off and so are the 'factory' marks on the pulleys themselves. The tension appears to be taught, with about a 1/4 inch of flex when I depress the belt. Don't know when the belt was last replaced (I have owned the car for a year now, and driven a little over 1,000 miles, and haven't replaced the belt). And yes, Mark, you are very astute, the pulleys are plastic.
I know that the float bowl is part of the carb, I even know what it does. Just not 100% sure where on the carb to find it.
Cannot for the life of me find the rear fuel filter. Is it possible I don't have one? How necessary is the rear filter? Is it necessary? Had the car up on ramps today, I was all the way underneath, and followed the fuel lines from the gas tank to the engine. No filter, save the one I replaced in the engine bay...
I have run out of light and time with my work for today...dinner time.
I will take more photos as possible, and keep everyone updated on my progress.
Don't give up on this thread!!!! Help me figure this one out!!!
Again, thanks for all suggestions, past-present-and future...
Peter