No good deed ever goes unpunished

[v6spider]

Kieth: The changes in timing and and compression will be minuscule unless you have to shave off over .030 then maybe. I am just suggesting that it is warped, in fact I would be surprised if it is not. Especially in between cylinders. Explain how pinging will cause a head gasket to blow on a flat or surfaced head as I have never heard of that. Generally, it has been my experience that most of time when you blow a head gasket on a four cylinder engine with an aluminum head, it is due to the head being warped. I have personally repaired many a four cylinder with a blown head gasket due to a warped aluminum head. Mainly Japanese but still the FIAT TC has aluminum head and engine design similar to the overhead cam Japanese four cylinders, so it shouldn't be any different. Again just what i have experienced...

Rob

[majicwrench]

Yup, changes in cam timing and compression will be small, but real. What if head has already been shaved?? Now you take off more. If you can avoid shaving head, you should.
Pinging, or detonation, really raises the pressure in the chambers. Hence the knocking sound. When you see a fire ring damaged or blown tween cylinders pinging is always suspect.
Warp...head is aluminum and some warp is almost part of the deal. It is being bolted to the very sturdy block with a bunch of very tight strong bolts which will take out some warp. Some shops straighten, as opposed to surface head, by BOLTING THEM TO A RIGID SURFACE then heating them. Just like a warped 2 x 4, once nailed down it is straight. And think about the warped 2x4, once you pull the nails and see that it is warped, you could then certainly shave the bottom flat. But now the TOP is warped when nailed back down. Same on a head. If you shave the bottom cause of warp, now the top, where the cam housing bolt, is not flat. None of this applies, of course is head is damaged in that are tween cylinders.

If you can avoid surfacing head, you should.

[v6spider]

I agree that a warped head needs to be straightened, especially with overhead cam type heads, but unfortunately it will need to be surfaced as well because the surface will still be uneven. It is the uneven surface that will help the head gasket to blow more readily than if the head has been surfaced. A .002 wear limit for uneven head surface isn't very much.

I've actually had material welded back into a head because of it being overly worn on a Toyota 22re because I couldn't find a head to replace it with. The guy I bought my first 4runner from didn't put any antifreeze in the car for years and it caused the head to rot a little due to electrolysis. I had a welder friend of mine do some TIG work to rebuild what was lost. The repairs turned out very nice and the head was pressure tested, surfaced and installed on the truck with no issues.

It definitely pays to be thorough that is for sure. If you go by the FIAT service manual you can't go wrong. Covering all concerns will certainly not hurt....

Let us know how it turns out TommyClocks...

Cheers!
Rob

[majicwrench]

I almost certainly do more 22RE head gaskets than anything else. They almost never make it 200k it seems.
Of some interest pertaining to this discussion, I did one last month, the head was so incredibly flat I was stunned. Usually there is SOME degree of warp.

[TommyClocks]

Things are going along pretty well, I checked the head and block with a straight edge and it looks like there is no warping. Luckily there doesn't appear to be any damage in the area where the head gasket failed. I remember when I removed the cylinder head, the bolts around Cylinders 1 and 4 were pretty tight and the bolts closer to 2 and 3 were easier to remove. I have to guess that the head was not torqued properly during the last service, maybe causing the gasket failure.

While I am waiting for parts, I am redressing some wiring and covering it with shrink tubing. It looks a lot neater now. I removed the master cylinder and I need to repaint the areas that were damaged when it leaked. I don't want any rust.

Bernie, that is a good idea about the steering box but I did that last month and you are right it is tough to make that adjustment. I was curious if anyone has ever changed the bottom seal on the steering box. The steering box leaked a few weeks after I filled it, and I couldn't find anyone that sells that seal. Can the seal be replaced from underneath the car or do I need to remove the steering box and get it rebuilt?

Thanks for all the insight, I'll let you know how it goes.

[manoa matt]

Classicricambi.com has the steering box oil seals. You will have to remove the box to install the seal, however the metal plate on the front of the box has plastic shims as a sealing surface. The shims are there for a critical measurement of the components inside the box. The shim plate is prone to leakage and sometimes it looks like the lower seal is leaking due to their proximity to each other.

[v6spider]

TommyClocks: Improper torqueing will almost certainly cause a gasket failure couple that with the pinging...and well there you go. Your on the right track. Usually when I torque a head I will do it by the book exactly and then go around it again a few times to make sure every bolt is at the correct torque. I almost always find bolts that need just a little more to be in spec.

majicwrench: interesting deal with the Yota, I have always usually have to surface those heads but I really have only changed a handful of them. However, I have done Honda's a plenty... mainly from driver neglect...The radiator temp switch goes out and people don't fix it and then the engine overheats as it is sitting and idling...by by head gasket...of course the head warps and sometimes they crack.

Cheers!
Rob

[TommyClocks]

Matt, thanks for the tip about the steering box. I will check again to determine where the leak is coming from. Have you rebuilt these steering boxes or is it safer to get a rebuilt unit?

[v6spider]

TommyClocks:

I have a good used no-leaking steering box if you are interested out of a 72'... I think the steering boxes are relatively unchanged except for the 85'.

Let me know if you are interested...

Rob

[TommyClocks]

I have been working a few late nights and haven't had a lot of time for the Spider. I installed the cylinder head and put the rest of the motor back together, cleaned and painted a few parts along the way. My son teases me because I am a little fussy about cleaning and painting parts before I reinstall them, but he likes the way things look when we are done.

I fired the motor and it ran fine. I burped the cooling system and set the ignition timing to 10 dgrees BTDC when the car warmed up. Have you guys tried a little more timing or is 10 dgrees about the most I should try?

I haven't test driven the car yet, I discovered that we couldn't bleed the rear brakes. The fronts bled fine but the rear brakes have very little pressure. After reading about the rear proportioning valve I have to conclude that it is stuck closed or almost closed. The linkage on the valve does not move when I tug on the torsion bar. That is probably why the parking brake didn't work either. I ordered the valve and it should be delivered this Thursday or next Monday. I ordered a parking brake cable too. The proportioning valve looks pretty easy to change but if anyone has any tips, cautions or adjustments I should know about, please let me know.

Rob, thanks for offering to sell the steering box, I'll keep it in mind. The steering box is one of the next things to do in the near future.

I uploaded some pics of the motor so you guys could tease me about being fussy too.....


http://www.flickr.com/photos/tommyclocks/5282394394/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tommyclocks/5282394218/

[narfire]

After stripping numerous brake fittings, I purchased a set of wrenches for brake fittings. They seem to have more surface area that contacts the sometimes siezed 10mm or 8mm bleed screws.
Hope someone can chime in with the correct name for the things.
When bleeding the rears, one has to have the car jacked up by the axle. This activates the rear brakes and lets the juice flow. If you have done this and still no flow , I guess the valve might be pooched.
You know the hand/parking brake is mechanical eh. Nothing really to do with the juice part but no harm in changing the cable and adjusting accordingly.

[RoyBatty]

I think what you are talking about is a flare nut wrench.
Another "tool" I think folks need to remember more often is heat.
I have never had the proper application of heat, lube and torque fail me with stuck fasteners.
Also sometimes it is helpful to actually tighten a fastener just a touch before you apply the torque to remove it.
Safety note: When using an open flame for heat, no flammables in the vicinity please.......do as I say, not as I do.
A heat gun works well in those situations.

[maytag]

I have never had the proper application of heat, lube and torque fail me with stuck fasteners.
Safety note: When using an open flame for heat, no flammables in the vicinity please.......do as I say, not as I do.
A heat gun works well in those situations.

I'd also suggest a combination of heat and freeze. Some dry ice works well. heat it really good, then hit it with dry ice. you'll hear it 'pop', then undo it.
I'd note though, that heat is also a great way to make sure it NEVER comes off, if you use too much heat, or don;t remove the fastener while it's still heated. Don;t ask me how I know.

[TommyClocks]

I have been using this stuff called AeroKroil, it works as a penetrating oil. It is used in the Aerospace industry and it is good stuff. I use it on brake line fittings and it works well. I have a heat gun and flare wrenches so I should be all set. Anyone know how critical the adjustment is on the brake proportioning/compensator valve?

As far as the parking brake not working I have to guess that if you are not getting pressure to the rear caliper then the piston will never advance. If the piston does not self adjust then the park brake will be useless.

[majicwrench]

Your guess about how the Park brake works ( or doesn't work!) is probably possible but not likely.
Am pretty sure there is a measurement for prop valve in the manuals. Critical?? Well, I would set it to specs, but realisticly it is not all that critical.

Timing, I would stick with 10 BTDC if that is what is called for from the factory. Adding more increases the tendancy to ping.