Oil leak on cam housing '82 FI 2000

[bran100]

I have an oil leak at the base of the passenger side, rear end, of the cam housing. How difficult is it to remove the cam housings to replace gaskets? I have smoke coming out from under the hood at stop lights, so it's real annoying.

At some point I'd like to replace the cams. Should I wait until I'm ready for that, or does the cam housing basically come off as a single piece and so it's a fairly straightforward job? Will I have parts falling off when I remove it?

Hopefully it's just a single piece and all I'll have to worry about is cam timing when replacing it?

Will the FI present a problem with removal?

I have a shop manual (claymore or something like that), but I don't believe it has good detail into the procedures for this? Is there another, more comprehensive manual?

I've rebuilt a couple of V8s about 20+ years ago, and probably didn't do a very good job of it as I threw a pushrod on one of them, but for the most part, I'm mechanically inclined.

The car has 144k miles and there are no other performance mods.

[E Prod Racer]

A leak in that area is very common on TC FIATs. It is most likely your dizzy shaft seal, which is internal to the distributor. The seal will leak with age, and the leakage flows out of the dizzy body through a weep-hole, right onto the exhaust. You need to pick up a product I describe below.

I wouldn't tell this one to just anybody, but I'll share it with the FIAT community. If you want to fix most seal leaks quickly, and easily, without having to tear your car apart, get this product:

QMI LiquiSeal. You can read about it at http://www.qmimo.com, or call the company at 417-683-6024. If your car is leaking like the EXXON Valdez, it might not help, but I have used it on leaking Auto Transmissions, Power Steering Pumps, my '54 Healey's leaky transmission, and about every part of my FIATs that hold (or don't hold..) lubricant. Transmissions, steering boxes, idlers, engines, rear axles that leak from the pinion seal, and from the axle seals. This product really works.

All of these FIATs that we love are at least 20 years old, and seals get worn, and more often, stiffen and dry out, to the point that they won't seal. These cars also get only intermittent usage, and that compounds the problem. LiquiSeal conditions the seals, and allows them to seal again without the need for replacement.

I had a power steering leak on my tow vehicle ('97 Ford Aerostar) that required a fill every other day, until I added LiquiSeal (about 3 ounces). I wish I had heard about this product sooner, because the power steering pump still makes a racket like it's worn out - but it hasn't leaked a DROP since I put in the 3 oz. of LiquiSeal more than 2 years ago! Really amazing stuff. I bought 3 quarts for myself, and the shop, two years ago, and we still have half if it left - it goes a long way. Get one quart for yourself, and fix most of your car's leak problems.

I conditioned all of my S-144 dizzys recently (2 showed signs of severe leakage), and tested them all on my Spider - no leaks on any of them. I used a dropper to lubricate the seals from the top of the distributors through the hole in the centrifugal weight plate, and let gravity do it's job to distribute the LiquiSeal into the seal. Feel free to call me about this product. You can also call me for services to select FIATs at my shop in Denver - 303-841-1176.

[Mark_vaughn]

I am taking your word on this one. It seems too good to be true, but that is exactly what my Fiat needs.

[mdrburchette]

I like the sound of this stuff too. My Pontiac has a leak at the intake and I might just fix it with this.

[bran100]

That was such a good testimonial I had to double take your signature to make sure you weren't a spammer. You would be a great spammer if you decided to quit your dayjob.

I've always been hesitant to use those types of products as I've made the assumption that they clog the good (orifices) as well as the bad(real leaks).

If that doesn't work, what's involved with fixing the dizzy leak?

[mdrburchette]

If you're lucky and don't have oil in the cap, it may just be the base gasket on the distributor, which entails just fighting that hateful nut and pulling the dist out. If you're not so lucky, you'll have to disassemble the dist to replace the inner seal.

[E Prod Racer]

Brandon,
Nope, no spam, just good advice. LiquiSeal is made to re-condition rubber shaft seals, so I don't know if it works on gaskets, unless the gasket is rubber, or has rubber content. I do know that the conditioning of the rubber restores it's resiliency without turning it too soft. It won't turn the seals to a gooey mess, like some transmission sealers will do.

The process of rebuilding a distributor by replacing the shaft seal, is a job that might not be worth the effort expended. The cam tower mounted dizzy is subject to a LOT of heat, and that is what kills the shaft seal. The LiquiSeal restores the seal with application of 4-5 drops of the product full strength. Give it a try and report back here - I don't want to continue to sound like "Potted Meat Food Product".....

[manoa matt]

First, you need to positively locate the source, is it the gasket at the base of the cam box, is it the gasket at the cover of the cam box, (these tend to leak alot and drip down, so you think its the base gasket), or is it the distributor?

If its the gasket at the base of the cam box then its not too hard, but you need to do it in the right order. loosten all the bolts evenly, and when you remove the box plus the cam, make shure the tappets and adjusting shims stay on the valve springs, they tend to stay with the cam box and slide out at the worst time. dont let one of these fall onto concrete.

What type of distributor do you have? I have the 78 dual points model.

There is an inner oil seal, if its bad oil will come up thru the distributor and come out at the base of the cap. You have to drive the pin out of the drive gear at the bottom to get it out. Its a real pain to change this seal.

There is a paper gasket that gets sandwitched between the distributor body and the cam housing, this is probably the most common place for it to leak.

I also have a 79 electronic distributor and it has both of the previous, plus it has an o-ring on the outer shaft that slides into the cam housing, about a half an inch below the paper gasket.

Besides re-conditioning the oil seals what does liquiseal do to your oil or other mechanical parts? What is its compatability with other metals and alloys? Remember, non GL-1 gear oil contains addatives, cleaners and conditioners, and it will eat up the syncro rings and bushings in the transmission.

If its too good to be true, it probably is. Stay away from snake oils and mystery miracle cures. Address the real problem the right way.

Matt

[bran100]

I ordered a new rubber o-ring from International along with a few other needed parts (dizzy cap/rotor) so I'll probably start on that next weekend. In the meantime, I'll probably go to town with engine degreaser this weekend to find the source of all of the leaks. There's plenty.

Thanks for all the info.

[The Magic Fiat]

When the oil leaks, is it puddling up in the spark plug wells?


This is what I'm dealing with at the moment.
I thought it was the head cover gaskets but after replacing them I was still getting leaks.


See how the wells fill? It never gets worse than this though and I don't show much loss on the stick.


The arrows point to where I think I'm leaking now.

So if that's the same thing you are facing, is the solution I read above about replacing the gaskets my answer as well?

Neil

[bran100]

Wow Neil, that is pretty bad!! I'd have to say that is a real fire hazard. You should look at it sooner rather than later.

Mine primarily leaks on the outside passenger side of the engine. I do have a small bit of oil around the plugs, but not to the extent you do.

My wife is trying to get me to go to Houston with her this weekend. If I can get out of that, I'll work on the Fiat this weekend. I have the gasket, I just have to install it.

I find the smoke even worse over the last month. It may be in my head, but I bet it got worse when I adjusted the timing a month or two ago. That leads me to believe that is probably the problem.

If so, one leak down, 30 more to go.

[So Cal Mark]

if you've got 30 leaks, you'd be better off to just remove the engine and replace all seals and gaskets and be done with it.

[manoa matt]

Yeah that is pretty bad. You should address this issure immediatly before your car goes up in smoke, literaly. It can't be good for the plugs either. How long does it take to accumulate that much oil? Do you frequently soak up that oil, or does it take a long time to get it to that level?

The gasket at the base of the cam housing is a thin piece of metal sandwitched between two layers of a thermo plastic. When you replace that gasket and start up the car for the first time, the thermo plastic melts and fills any voids. I recently replaced this gasket on my car and did not retorque the cam housing bolts after its initial start up, but it does not leak. Maybe if your car runs hot or overheated recently the plastic remelted and ran out, thus the leak. However, the gasket is thin and the tolerances are pretty tight, It's hard to imagine that much oil comming out of that gasket, unless its been doing it for a long while.

Another possibility is that it is leaking out at the cam box cover gasket.
I know you just replaced them. So did I, and mine still leak. The problem with the cam box covers is that the covers warp easily. The problem is compounded by the fact that the two hold down bolts can not spread out the pressure to straighten them out. If you tighten those two bolts too much the gasket gets pinched and makes it leak even worse.
One way to check if the covers are warped is to install them without the gasket and use a feeler gauge. I would advise against trying to bend them back into shape.

The two bolts that hold the cam covers on should also have a small red paper gasket. This is a common place for oil to leak. If its leaking here you should be able to see it clearly.

Mark is probably right, it may be time to replace alot of the gaskets and oil seals, but before tearing your engine apart do a systematic investigation. It should only take an hour and will identify the source.

First remove some things in the way, plug wires, wiring to sensors, air check valve etc. DO NOT remove the spark plugs yet. Soak up all the oil you can. Yeah its tough, there isn't much space to work.

Second, try to clean up that "valley" as best you can, take clean rags and wipe up the oil and grease. Pay attention to the areas that you think could be the source. If you need to use engine degreaser, spray it on the rag, don't spray it on the engine. Its just more to clean, and if you don't get it all you WILL have a fire on your hands.

Now that its all clean, start it up and watch. You should be able to see where its coming out.

Matt

[manoa matt]

Q-tips aren't just for your ears.

matt

[bran100]

I replaced the dizzy O-ring, the rotor and the cap tonight. Took all of about 45 minutes to do that and get it timed right.

The old gasket was more like hard plastic than rubber. I dripped a bit of oil on the manifold cover and now that it's dark, it's too early to tell if I fixed the leak. Judging by the amount of smoke, I don't think that did it.

How hard is it to remove the cam housing? Will I be dropping valves, spring, tappets, etc. when it comes off, or does it come off in a single piece so I just have to worry about timing when I put it back together?

My shop manual has absolutely no detail on the matter. Can anyone recommend a brand of shop manual that has specific detail?

By the way, the old dizzy cap and rotor were a bit pitted. It's amazing what a difference changing those and getting the timing right did for the performance. I'm amazed at how easy it is to get to 5k RPM now and how much quicker the car is.

By the way, 30 leaks was a bit of a stretch. I've got a couple, but I haven't had time to clean the engine to figure out just where they are. It's not my daily driver, but I'm in no hurry to pull the engine just yet. No matter how sexy Mark's headers would look on my car. Can I call headers sexy?