72' 124 starting issue

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He said when he got it running, he heard some noise. He took off the oil cap and saw some sludgey goo. He drained the oil, said it was full of junk, then filled the oil back up. Took it for a spin, and it wouldn't break 45. He said it looked like it had the issue for some time. I heard it running when I purchased, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. He suggested sending the oil in for analysis at Blackstone to test for certain metals. I didn't see any smoke when he drove up. The guy is a certified BMW/Audi mechanic. His other mechanic use to have a Spider. They seem reputable, and got good reviews on Google. Offered to go to court to testify on my behalf. I don't know how to proceed at this point. I only have about a grand left.

[2ndwind]

Spence,
Catch your breath for a minute. OK. You say you heard it running when you picked it up but I guess you didn't drive it. So maybe it never did go above 45mph? I understand you don't have a lot of time on your hands. Forget small claims court. The seller can easily claim you didn't have it evaluated by a FIAT mechanic. You cannot argue from a point of weakness. Spend your time and money looking for a qualified mechanic. You might post a subject in the general forum area "Anybody know a good mechanic in Nashville?" From the sounds of it, I think you have a fuel/carburetor issue. Later, you can drain the oil again after 100 miles and see if there continues to be bits in the oil.

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Ha, I need to breathe don't I? So are you saying that even if there were issues in the engine, it should still go, albeit loudly, down the road, over 45? I'll see if I can locate a mechanic that specializes in Fiats in my area. Thanks for the reply.

[majicwrench]

Many engine issues will not neccessarily cause a loss of power. If you heard it running and it was not horribly loud, engine likely OK, or at least functional. Many, many many things on an old fiat will keep it from having enough power, as 2ndwind mentioned, carb/fuel issues top the list.
Send oil out to be tested?? These guys are on drugs. Drugs they buy with their customer's money.
Yup, small claims court a hassle and you likely are not going to get anything, you bought a 38yr old used car. Again, good advice from 2ndwind, find a good mechanic. Heck, with a grand, you could fly me to Nashville, I will get it running for you. Always wanted to see what life was like back east
Keith

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The oil analysis was up to me to have done, its $25. I went to the shop, he showed me the oil, had a heap of metallic specs all in it, smell heavily of gasoline. Looked through the oil port, the lobes on the came were pretty rough, definitely taken a beaten. He replaced some fuel line, changed the oil. He recommends changing the oil when i get it home, adding Lucas. I found another shop, 30 year business specializing in imports. Said he had a great carb guy with 40 years experience.

[NCArachnid]

I agree with the others, sounds like the carb or fuel delivery system. That car should have the DHSA carb with vacuum secondary that can go bad. The parts suppliers (Vick, IAP, others) will have a rebuild kit and some of the Weber dealers may have the secondary if it is bad (http://www.piercemanifolds.com or http://www.webercarbsdirect.com). I have an extra secondary diaphragm and housing but haven't checked that it is good lately.

The old points ignition system seems to need attention if the car isn't driven regularly. It is very inexpensive to change cap, rotor, points (and set dwell), condenser and plugs.

Here is a great resource for you (or your mechanic). http://www.artigue.com/fiat/books/Artig ... 124_MM.pdf
It gives a great deal of information about these engines as well as maintenance and tuning.

Hope this is helpful. Once the engine is sorted, there is nothing like it. The 1600 is one sweet engine.

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Went and picked it up. No loud clacking, or knocking. Had my girlfriend follow me back, she said she only noticed smoke when I first cranked. Had some hilly terrain, said she never noticed any heavy smoke. But, like the mechanic said, it will not rev up at all, will not break 3000RPMs or 55mph. You can floor it in neutral, and it will not rev up. The poor thing barely climbs a hill, gets really quiet, almost like the engine is no longer running, an odd silence. I took some photos of the gauges while driving. Oil pressure kept lowering, was about a ten mile drive. Brakes work good, rides good. Just slow as a ten speed Schwinn. I'm going to pull the plugs, cap etc, see what condition it's all in. Many thanks guys for the insight and words of wisdom. I have a week to get it running, back to work.



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[majicwrench]

While it's possible plugs points are causing power issue, more likely carb/fuel. If you want to try something quick and easy, stick a fuel filter in it. Take old filter and let gas drain from the "in" side to see what it has been filtering, drain it into a small cup.
Good job getting it out of that shop BTW.
Keith

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Spoke with Ramzi at Auto Ricambi, he suggested what you two said, check the points. Also said to perform a compression test. Going by what I described, he said he doubts fuel since it idles well, but he wouldn't rule it out, of course I'm describing this over the phone. The one thing that ha me worried, is you can see wear on the lobe through the valve cover. I will pickup a filter this afternoon and see what happens. Man, this is confusing when you have no one locally that really knows their stuff. I really do appreciate you taking time to answer.


EDIT: Checked points, looked ok. Before I even touched the car, I let her run, listening to her. Her idle got worse, till she's stalling, after lowering to a 300rpm idle. Plugs look newish, couldn't pull, didn't have the socket size. You'd think after working on a Ducati I'd have every tool imaginable. I'm linking some photos of what the distributor looks like. I may have to accept, I'm not very good at diagnosis. Repairing what is known, I can do. May be best to let shop have a go at it before I cause any issues. Ramzi did mention timing, said it may be off, belt installed incorrectly, jumped a tooth etc. I don"t have a timing gun.
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[majicwrench]

Obviously we can't see car, but from experience, methinks this still is most likely a fuel issue. Takes almost no fuel to make an engine idle, the faster you go, the more fuel it takes. Old Fiats always seem to have fuel issues of some sort. My 72 was forever not pumping fuel to carb when I let it sit for a while ( used to prime to get started), and was forever plugging idle jet. Was forever dying on road with no fuel in carb years ago. Clean, line tank, blow out lines, rebuild fuel pump and carb, is now wonderfully dependable as long as I drive it reasonably often. If let sit for any length, ( like 3 months) it still tends to plug idle jet, and then is hard start, hard to accell, and no idle. Just clean jet and runs like new again.
I would not bother checking compression. Compression issues most obvious at idle, at seems like at one point in al this it was idling OK?? If you do pull plugs, used compressed air or SOMETHING to blow around plugs to keep debris from falling in when plug comes out.
Cam timing problem always possible, easy to check, and worth taking the 5 minutes to do so.

Cam wear, unless you are experienced at looking at cam wear thru oil fill holes in Fiats,, I wouldn't worry about it at this point. Sure, it likely looks worn, it likely IS worn, been in there a long time probably. Is it causing problems, probably not.

When driving it and no power, does pulling out choke half way make any difference??
We feel your pain, and we are here for you!
Keith

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Choke out does help in idle obviously, it putters about down the road as it was. The idle issue started once home. Did you look at the pics I posted, took pics of point and rotor. So in your opinion, where should I start? I have the Fiat Shop Manual, a nice set of Craftsman, seems I'm missing the correct socket for the spark plugs, what size is it, not a an 18mm, the largest I have. I don't have a timing light either.
Should the two pads of the points be making contact? I adjust per the Haynes that said they should be parallel. One looks slightly burred, but the pads seem to be in decent shape.
Time to bust out the feeler gauge.

Matt called me from Bayless, he's leaning toward timing, or worse, camshaft.
Said all mentioned are indeed possible, but with fuel, he says it's usually all or nothing. Spit or sputtering, which mines not, it's just won't break over 55mph/3000rpm, which leads him to believe it's in the timing.

[majicwrench]

I do not understand anyone thinking it is a camshaft issue. ??????? It IS NOT a camshaft issue.

Timing, yes, you need to check cam timing. If you have manual, should clearly show how to check cam timing. Do it, first things first.
Points rotor not causing your problem, no I did not look at pics. Points should open and close as engine rotates. The fact that engine run indicates that this is indeed happening. Put cap back on. Points are doing what they are supposed to do, car runs so we know it is creaating spark..
Fuel "all or nothing"?? I do not understand. Very, very possible, very likely, happens all the time, old fiats develop fuel delivery problems, rust in tank, clogged filter, rubber lines crack, and cannot deliver enough fuel to engine. These cars often idle fine, but won't get up to speed. Back in the days when every car on the road had a carb, we spent our days fixing weak fuel pumps, clogged screens, cracked lines, carbs with debris plugging jets. Search the forum.

Did you pull fuel filter?? Drain from "in" port into cup, see what is in there. Normal to see a bit of fine sediment. Not normal to see rust, sludge etc.

Does car accelerate OK till it starts running out of power, or is it always lacking in power??

Again, start by checking cam timing, is quick easy and painless. If car accelerates OK cam timing likely OK, but why not check it.
Then pull fuel filter, just to see what is in it. Is quick easy, and only a few bucks to replace. Heck, you could put the old one back on if no sludge comes out. If a lot of sludge comes out, replace and take for drive.
Do those two things, quick easy, report back. One step at a time. Or in this case two steps.
Plugs have a 13/16 Hex, at least those in my 72 do.
Keith

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That's the one thing the hooch left in the trunk, plenty of odds/ends and FILTERS!
In the morning after the grass is cut and weedeated.
I did notice a shutter on take off, a slight hesitation. Not sure if that's the clutch or not. Tranny makes a lot of syncro noise, not bad, sounds like a bank vault lock opening/closing, very organized mechanical noise. Shifts smooth.
But back to the point, no it will not get up and go, sluggish.

[So Cal Mark]

I'd start with the basics; check cam timing, then compression and ignition timing. If just one lobe on the cam is wasted, the car should run rough. If all of the lobes are wasted you won't have any power, but the valves should be quite noisy

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Hi Mark, thanks for the reply. I've gotten some great advice, hitting it in sequence today. By the way, once this is sorted, and on my way to the rest, I'm getting one of those sexy headers of yours.