'69 124 Spider with a hard starting issue

[GP69124SPORT]

Okay, so I'm baffled about why this is doing what it's doing.

Let me first tell you what I've done so far.

The 1438cc engine in my '69, came out of a '70 BS 124 Spider. The engine still says AS on it, if that matters at all.

The distributor is the same one that was in the engine when I swapped it. I did however pull it out to look at it, and checkout the points before attempting to start the car for the first time. I put it right back in where it was when I pulled it (rotor aligned back up with the mark I made) After I swapped the engine, The first time I attempted to get it started, it didn't have spark. I took everything a part several times, and after several attempts, it finally had spark.

I had already ordered a new set of points and a condenser, thinking it might be those, but since I got spark, I didn't install them right away. I thought it might be also be the coil, but switching out the coil with a new Bosch blue coil, made no difference. I put the original coil back in and that's when I actually got spark the first time.

So I get it started, and it runs, but not great at low idle. I switch out the points and condenser, cap, and rotor. Still hard start issue, and not wanting to run at low idle, so since the carb was really dirty, I decided that it needed to be rebuilt. I send it to Mark Allison. Mark rebuilds it, and tells me I'm missing the low idle jet, and he puts one in (I think that's what Mark said. Correct me if I'm wrong Mark). After getting the carb back from Mark, I got it started again, but it took A LOT of cranking. It fires up finally, and runs really well. Idles, and purrs like a kitten.

Since I had such a hard time getting it started after putting the carb on, I decided to re-time the engine.

I set the timing marks dead on, and set the distributor to fire on #4, and it refused start. I rotate the distributor clockwise until it started to try to start, which was exactly what it was doing before I pulled the distributor and re-timed it to begin with, so I'm sure I had the timing where it needed to be. I even took out the distributor and moved the rotor one tooth each way, and still no difference. I put it back to it's original spot, and still nothing. I rotate the distributor again, and I finally manage to get it to start again after endless cranking on the starter with the distributor rotated clockwise. After it get it started, I jump out, and turn the distributor back to where it was originally when I reset the timing. It now runs perfect again.

I shut it off, and go to start it again, and again it won't fire. I rotate the distributor again to the same spot as before, and it tries to fire. I keep cranking and giving it a little gas, and it finally fires again. I repeat the jumping out, and turning the distributor back to where it should be, and it runs great again.

I shut it off, and again it refuses to start. This time I cranked on the starter again for so long, I fried it (I think. It's just clicking now, and the battery is fully charged. Do these starters have soleniods that can be replaced?).

So now I am at the point of being totally baffled as to why this keeps doing this. I don't think it's the belt because it hasn't jumped time. All the timing marks align perfectly. I am going to check the belt tomorrow for tension, but don't think it's a belt issue. I think it's a distributor issue. I'm going to tap on the starter and see if I just got it stuck. I doubt it, as much as I cranked on it, I'm sure it's toast.

Anyone got any ideas? I Have the car for sale in the cars for sale forum on here, and would really like to have it running if anyone wants to look at it.

I might also wind up keeping the car, and right now I'm considering one of Mark's new distributorless set ups to just completely rule out the distributor. That's another $500.00 just to try to get back if I have to sell the car (which I'm asking $1200.00 for right now, and would then have to ask $1700.00), so I'm trying to figure out what it might be, without just throwing money at it.

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, -Dave

[mdrburchette]

What is your base timing? This is a crank driven distributor, right?

[GP69124SPORT]

What is your base timing? This is a crank driven distributor, right?

I really don't know. I just set the timing marks to the first line on the cover, as the timing mark on the crank comes around, and set the rotor to fire on #4. I am waiting on a used distributer to come from Ca. so I can go a head and see if that's the problem. I am going to actually open my Haynes manual for the first time to look to see if there's some really stupid mistake I'm making. Plus I'm going to go get an dwell meter

I also have to see if I can get the starter to engage. I haven't been down to the hanger to work on it since last week. Had to walk away for awhile.

[Ernie]

GP,

Cam timing is relative to #4. Ignition timing is #1.

Have another go at it with that in mind and let us know how you do.

Ernie

[GP69124SPORT]

GP,

Cam timing is relative to #4. Ignition timing is #1.

Have another go at it with that in mind and let us know how you do.

Ernie

You mean as in the cams are set to their the tower marks?

I only set it the same way everytime, which was cams lined up with the cam tower marks, and crank on the first mark on the cover. Is that not how you're supposed to set it to fire on #4?

[So Cal Mark]

that is correct

[GP69124SPORT]

that is correct

Correct in that I am setting it up correctly Mark, or that I am not? Just want to clarify that what I am doing is being done the way it should be done.

I ask because I ended the sentence with "Is that not how you're supposed to set it to fire on #4?"

I never opened the manual I have yet, because all the info I have gathered on how to set the timing so far, was gathered from this forum. I felt that it was the correct way to set it to fire on #4.

I'm only going to crack the manual open to find out if I am indeed a bonehead, or if I am totally missing something about setting up the belt/timing marks/points/condenser/spark plug gap/distributor/and coil correctly. I think the bottom line is that I have a worn out distributor.

I should have pointed out in the beginning of this topic, how exactly I set up the timing up to fire on #4. Also, I failed to mention that I also put in brand new spark plugs. They are Autolites. What number I have no idea. Would have to look at them to know, and at the moment the car is 30 min. away.


One thing that I do remember about the first time I got the car to start, is that I used an electric fuel pump to push fuel from the tank to the manual fuel pump. I'm wondering if I should do that again... It seemed to start easier. That was before having the carb rebuilt. I can see it spray when i move the throttle linkage, so I didn't think about connecting the electric fuel pump inline again.

Although, at the moment, it won't even fire on starting fluid. Of course, at even the bigger moment, it won't even crank over either, so I have to fix that first.

All this for my girlfriend. I'm not even working on a car that I'll ever even drive.... I must be nuts.

[mdrburchette]

Have you pulled your plugs to see what they look like? If you don't know if you're running the correct plug, you may want to change to NGK BPR6ES. That's what most of us use, with around .025 gap. Make sure the gap on the points is around .015 to .017 Also, in my Fiat manual, it seems the early models like a base timing of 5 to 10 degrees. I don't have specifics for the 1438. Hope your starter isn't toast.

[ventura ace]

#4 is indeed the plug that needs to fire when the engine is lined up with all the cam and crankshaft timing marks. Likewise, #4 is technically the correct wire to read with your timing light when setting the timing advance (but you can read either from #4 or #1, since the crankshaft spins 2 times for every 1 rotation of the distributor, and pistons #1 and #4 go up and down together).

If you haven't studied it yet, be sure to look INSIDE the distributor cap and see where the metal point is for the #4 wire. It will not be in the same place as it looks from the outside of the cap. When setting the distributor in place you are setting the rotor so that it points in the vicinity of the tab on the inside of the cap for the #4 wire.

You mentioned several times that your engine was running like a sewing machine, and if that's the case, then your dizzy timing must have been set correctly or close to correct. I don't think that is your problem. You may have a fuel issue. You mentioned that you have an electric fuel pump and mechanical fuel pump running in series. That may work out fine for a while, but then it may cause either fuel pump to have problems -- I don't know. Maybe the electrical fuel pump is straining and overheating and not functioning for a while until it cools down again. Maybe their both putting out too much pressure and the fuel check valve in the fuel bowl is being blown off the seat and filling up the bowl too high and cause flooding. Maybe there is trash that is building up on your fuel filter that chokes off all the gas flow after it has been running for a few minutes, but the trash settles down after the engine dies, and allows it to run again a short while later.

Alvon

[GP69124SPORT]

Have you pulled your plugs to see what they look like? If you don't know if you're running the correct plug, you may want to change to NGK BPR6ES. That's what most of us use, with around .025 gap. Make sure the gap on the points is around .015 to .017 Also, in my Fiat manual, it seems the early models like a base timing of 5 to 10 degrees. I don't have specifics for the 1438. Hope your starter isn't toast.

Only checked #1 plug after Mark rebuilt the carb, and it was black. I had it running before Mark rebuilt the carb, but it ran like crap at low idle so it was more than likely running really rich. I got it running twice for only a few minutes after rebuilding the carb, so I haven't had a chance to even burn off the carbon and soot on the plugs.

I would have let it run longer, but I need to either find the correct radiator for a '69 running the factory fan blade set up, or put a small electric fan on the '70 radiator that's in it now. There's no room to run the original electric fan that came on the '70 radiator in the '69, because of the core support isn't notched.

The NGK BPR6ES plugs might be a good starting point as well.

[GP69124SPORT]

Alvon,

I understand that the electrode in the cap needs to actually be aligned to the rotor tip when setting timing. I could drop the dist. in anywhere, as long at the electrode and rotor are in alignment to the desired cylinder. As far as the fuel pump. I don't currently have both inline. I only did that on the initial start up, because I switched gas tanks and needed to push fuel through the lines to the original mechanical pump on the engine. It's entirely possibly my mechanical pump is junk, and barely pumping, so the assist from the electric pump, was helping it just enough to keep fuel going to the carb. I took the electric pump out of service once I had the car running the first time. I have yet to reinstall it. I am just looking at other possibilities as to why if the timing is set correctly, that I have to move the back and forth so much. Maybe lack of fuel is one possibility, and easy to check just by putting the electric pump back inline, and bypassing the mechanical pump all together. That's IF I had a starter that worked. Going to see what's up with the starter today.

As far as the timing. I set it to fire on #4, but actually have to rotate the dist. clockwise to get it to even want to fire at all. In this position, the #4 electrode in the cap is now in the position of #2(I think that's right. I don't have a cap in front of me. It's the next terminal over to the right of #4). Once I do manage to get it to start, I pull the throttle lever all the way out, jump out of the car, an turn the dist. back to where #4 should be, and that's when it runs perfectly again. I have to push the throttle lever back in at this point, because the engine is at full throttle of course. Once I push the lever back in, it just sits an idles perfectly.

Basically, the dist. has to be rotated 1/4 turn clockwise to get it to fire, then back 1/4 turn counter clockwise to it's original position to make it run perfectly. This is the issue that I can't seem to figure out.

[So Cal Mark]

turning the dizzy clockwise would retard the timing, so that's kind of odd for starting.

[GP69124SPORT]

turning the dizzy clockwise would retard the timing, so that's kind of odd for starting.

Ya Mark, tell me about it. I need to just make a video of this thing doing this, so you guys can sit back and scratch your heads as well... I think I just need to replace everything (belt/cap/rotor/wires/plugs/distributor/and coil) to eliminate any issues. OR just buy one of your awesome distributors, and a new belt. If I am still fighting this by this time next week, you're going to see an order come in for one from me. I have VERY little patience for this sort of thing.

[So Cal Mark]

the first batch of ignitions is coming in Friday, so I'll be waiting by the phone
Just out of curiosity, have you taken a compression test? Since you say it runs well after starting I doubt the compression is low, but I'm interested to hear what it is

[ventura ace]

Are the advance weights and springs rotating like they should in the distributor? If not, it might behave like you are saying: You are changing the advance as you rotate the distributor back and forth, The internal weights and springs should do that automatically. Check to see that they aren't rusted in one fixed position.

Alvon