have you been noticing?

[wengr]

. . . Just remember that it has been "We the People" who have voted for the changes, etc that have gotten us to this point. We can change it back, but it will take time and effort on everyone's part. . .

Jim, by "voting for the changes" you must mean in 2000 and 2004, right? After all, it would be unrealistic to suggest that the problems being discussed developed since January 21, 2009.

Disclaimer: I am intentionally opening a can of worms here.

So true, I really got a sense of it coming on in the early ninties with Clinton et al desiring to spread some wealth around and equalize the standard of living in countries around the world.

[Gunsmith]

That is the funny part about this thread; we are all here for our obsession with an obsolete outdated unreliable imported automobile that we just love. By saying that I meant there are many other more modern roadsters that are certainly more reliable and have more power but we choose our Spiders anyway. So why do we love them if we are so committed to our country? It’s simple no American company has made anything close to the Spider in style that can be purchased by the average Joe that’s why. It is the fundamental force behind capitalism, feed the wants and desires of your consumer and you should be successful. I love classic Corvettes more than Spiders but right now I do not want to tie up that much money in a car, but I still want a fun convertible which the Spider fills beautifully. So should we be penalized for trying to keep our foreign automobiles on the road, no that would be un-American by stifling my pursuit of happiness wouldn’t it?

But as many people have touched on it is far deeper than people buying foreign automobiles. After asking ALL of my union friends what they did to make sure their company that they work for stays competitive and stays in business they stared at me like I had three eyes. “That’s not my job” I heard over and over again. I am not trying to union bash and clearly unions were necessary and if they were not there any more we would be back to the same thing. So what does a country do? I wish everyone made millions and we could all equally enjoy the “Charmed” life. The ironic thing is that most of my union friends made more than many of my college educated professional friends. This I do not fault my union friends for at all, in fact good for them, they beat the system. The problem is though that if you pay hi rates for relatively low skill jobs that even illiterate foreign workers can eventually do you will eventually have a problem. Most of my union worker friends do have an “I deserve it” mentality which is the core problem with the unions and this country. Instead of trying to make sure they helped the company succeed they only wanted to know what they could get right now and then guarantee them that forever regardless of the changes in the marketplace the company must compete in.

I had a lot of bad teachers in my years at public school and also had a lot of good ones too. I did hear from many of the worst ones “You cain’t fire me I got’s tenyear”. Teachers in a lot of places are still underpaid but maybe in some areas they are not. In our area of the world they are expected to raise the population’s children not just teach them the fundamentals of education. If someone’s monster child gets in trouble it’s the teachers fault and a lawyer will help the parents sue the school board. That being said I think our local teachers union not only screws the school board but also their good teachers but if the teachers don’t do anything about it then that’s what they get.

I am sure our auto manufacturers could have and should be doing a better job but you can’t blame it all on the management alone. You could be the world’s best manager and if people cannot afford to put gas in your car let alone buy a new one from you what are you supposed to do? If Rolls Royce cut he 300K price tag for their car in half I still would not buy one. Should an auto maker be forced to keep producing inventory that no one is buying or send people home and still pay them? If I work for an automobile manufacturer should my job and benefits be federally backed and bailed out and not the guy next store that works for a plumbing company? Why should only those that work for big corporations be saved?

Unions have way too much power both in the economy and in politics but if you get rid of them entirely then the companies will have too much power.

It is very complicated but I still believe it boils down to politicians and how much power we let or don’t let them have and how much we get involved in and not just watch from the side lines and complain. How many of you have volunteered on campaigns or worked to get the right person for the job? It is hard work that we all feel someone should be doing but rarely do we want that someone to be us. After all we like to spend our free time driving our Italian convertibles down our favorite scenic highway………

[wengr]

you know,your so anti american product it seems. a japanese car dosent always compare to an american car, in my opinion. for example, mazda rx7 , purely japanese. if you like the car its because of the car. its not where its made. the mustang pure american design, if thats your kind of car its because thats what you like, its not because its american made. everyone has always praised the jap cars as better, and in some ways im sure they are, but that dosent mean everything american is junk, or just good as a grocery getter.there is some good stuff out there. i actually bought two toyotas over a period of time, both were nothing but trouble. ive owewed at least 11 new cars that i can recall, 5 fords, 1 chevy, mazda, vw, toyota and honda. the mazda and honda were great, the toyota junk, the fords i miss, they were good trucks. i know im all over the place , but oh well. there are good american cars and trucks out there, then there are some that i wouldnt be caught dead in, the same goes for foreign cars. by the way, that 2.3 engine isnt mazdas. it goes way back with ford. they use it in everything, its a stout motor. had it in a ranger. it came in pintos. the first thing that i know it was in was the capri, originally a european ford.
fords i like today, the edge, ranger, f150, mustang,flex,

Am I anti american product? I don't know, but if I am it's purely based on my experience. I think you misunderstood me. I agree if you want a mustang then you need to get a mustang, an rx7 won't do. By grocerie getters I was refering to typical daily commutting cars be they japanese, american or whatever. For that application, I just want what works, and in my experience Japanese has few issues and better resale. I've given the big 3 a few chances - corvette, a disater - deville, really liked this car but impossible to put up with all the northstar greif - grand cherokee, always something wrong with this as well. Also i'm not talking aboust v8 trucks. they don't suffer from transaxle failures or gm 6cyl gasket fun etc. anyway I'm not anti domestic by nature, I just don't default to domestic because of tradition. I don't think we are talking about the same 2.3. I have a 95 mazda b2300 with a 2.3. pretty crude, has 8 plugs because they could not get it to burn clean enough with just 4. belongs in a tractor. the motor I was referring to was a 2.3 pzez dohc 16 valve. And for the record I really could'nt care less about japanese cars. My preference has always been for european.

[spiderrey]

wenger, you cant always judge the present by the past. i understand your ol vette was crappy. the vettes of today are leaps and bounds better then what you had. just like most of the newer american made cars. i think you finally got it right when you said you cant totally get rid of unions etc. so i see you had issues with teachers and had some lazy ass friends that were union. that dosent mean all union people are the same. you cant condemn a whole system because you had a bad experience. i know if i dont do a good jod that makes the company look good and makes a profit, ill be out of a job. i take pride in my work. you think we are over paid be cause you think what we do is menial. thats bullshit, we go thru lots of appretices that never make it to journeyman because they just dont have what it takes. the job isnt somthing anyone can do, at least not well anyway. we go thru an appretice training program. you need to be able to figure things out on the fly, modify things in a way to make them work where they have never been used and willl never be used again. i guarentee most people couldnt do my job as well as i do, thats why ive lasted almost 30 years. an education dosent make you an elite person thats entitled to more money, it just puts you in a different group of workers, not better or not less then us.

[spiderrey]

and my fords werent only v 8,s, i had 4 rangers with 4s or v6,s that i wouldnt mind having again.

[wengr]

wenger, you cant always judge the present by the past. i understand your ol vette was crappy. the vettes of today are leaps and bounds better then what you had. just like most of the newer american made cars. i think you finally got it right when you said you cant totally get rid of unions etc. so i see you had issues with teachers and had some lazy ass friends that were union. that dosent mean all union people are the same. you cant condemn a whole system because you had a bad experience. i know if i dont do a good jod that makes the company look good and makes a profit, ill be out of a job. i take pride in my work. you think we are over paid be cause you think what we do is menial. thats bullshit, we go thru lots of appretices that never make it to journeyman because they just dont have what it takes. the job isnt somthing anyone can do, at least not well anyway. we go thru an appretice training program. you need to be able to figure things out on the fly, modify things in a way to make them work where they have never been used and willl never be used again. i guarentee most people couldnt do my job as well as i do, thats why ive lasted almost 30 years. an education dosent make you an elite person thats entitled to more money, it just puts you in a different group of workers, not better or not less then us.

Rey, I have no idea what you are talking about. You are making numerous assumptions about me. Where did I say that all union people are the same? Where did I say anything about your work? Please be specific. Impossible, as I have no Idea what you do. Where do I say that what anyone does is menial? Please point it out. Where did I say that I am educated and elite? As you have chosen to accuse me of such please take the time and refer me to where Iv'e said any of this. And fwiw, I have zero colledge education and I'm far from elite, whatever that means.

[wengr]

wenger, you cant always judge the present by the past. i understand your ol vette was crappy. the vettes of today are leaps and bounds better then what you had. just like most of the newer american made cars.

Getting back to the cars, maybe you are right but only time will tell. I have a friend with a newish corvette. Whatever the super high horsepower one is. How it will fair 5 -10 years from now who knows? If I'm going to spend almost 70k on a car it had better last at least that. I'll tell you this, for that kind of money the fit and finish is not so impressive.

[Kevin1]

It can be a crapshoot no matter what you buy, american or import. We have had tremendous luck with three Mazdas (626, MPV-4WD, 6S). Our Toyota Avalon (reputed to be bulletproof) had the engine replaced due to toyota's famous v6 sludge problem, new struts at 70k, all new suspension bushings at 50k, new starter at 110k, new exhaust at 90k. Then again, our '80's Taurus ran 200k without more than regular maintenance.

[Gunsmith]

Guys take it easy I don't believe anybody intends any personal attacks on this hot subject. I believe the union issues that most people are referring to are unskilled union jobs only protected by union clout and not quality of work. I do not think there will is any question about skilled trades like plumbers, electricians, metal works etc. There are good and bad examples on each side of this subject.

As far as the quality of American or foreign automobiles go I think everyone can agree it really depends on which year of what model and what manufacturer you have in mind. I have had countless motorcycles, cars, trucks and boat engines and had good and bad experiences with a myriad of manufacturers. I am not disappointed with the quality of any of the new American cars I think I would own. But I can't stand it when a manufacturer advertises "#1 in initial quality" what good is that? Anyways I am glad all of you are on here and know you are not taking stabs at each other.

[wengr]

Guys take it easy I don't believe anybody intends any personal attacks on this hot subject. I believe the union issues that most people are referring to are unskilled union jobs only protected by union clout and not quality of work. I do not think there will is any question about skilled trades like plumbers, electricians, metal works etc. There are good and bad examples on each side of this subject.
... Anyways I am glad all of you are on here and know you are not taking stabs at each other.

yes no animosity here towards anyone. I hope everyone else feels the same. I also appreciate that we can disscuss these issues here in a productive manner, as it has been helpful to me. For example, Racydave mentioned the importance of unions in promoting safety in the mining industry. Good point and one which deserves serious consideration imo. So I say what I think, based on my experience and I appreciate it when others do the same, and it's a learning experience for me. It's sometimes hard to cyberchat without somone drawing inferrences that were not intended. That's why there is an upcoming consortium of experts, a thinktank if you will, gathering this summer in southeast Pa. to disscuss the issues of today. I think it's called ffo 09