Engine rebuild (questions)

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phaetn
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Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
Location: Ottawa, ON Canada

Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by phaetn »

Well, after a long absence I'm back as I get ready to pull the engine.

My wife is very ill so I'm taking time off work and sometimes have hours in the day with nothing going on while my better half sleeps. Given the mild weather, I've decided to pull the engine to get the bottom end rebuilt. I had the head rebuilt a couple of years ago with new (stock size) valves, brass valve guides, multi-angle grind valve seats, and Isky springs. I kept the cams stock.

My oil gets black fast, and it has done as long as I have owned the car (almost 7 years), which must be due to blow-by due to tired rings. I bought it with 86,000 miles, and it's now at over 120,000 miles, so it can only be more severe and with less cross-hatching on the walls. I know the contaminated oil must be awful for bearings so I want to address the issue before something fails, and I think I can even hear a bottom end knock at times that is getting worse. Lift off (negative pressure) blue smoke from the exhaust was improved a bit by new valve seals when I redid the head, but remains an issue. Compression from #1 to #4 was as follows in 2017: 112; 120; 115; 110. It might be a bit lower now, though the car still pulled great this summer.

Happily I managed to avoid a dreaded coolant leak this summer that has somewhat plagued the car the past few years, and not just from a blown head gasket (maybe an issue in the intake) though I've tried two different ones. I might get the coolant passage at the intake plugged in the block since the car now has an electric choke and this should hopefully reduce the possibility of coolant getting sucked into the neighbouring #4 intake.

I was hoping to get the engine rebuilt by Jon Logan at Midwest-124 but it turns out the shipping from Canada will be prohibitively expensive at $1500+ (almost as much as half of the cost of his rebuild!), especially since with COVID restrictions I cannot cross the border to ship it from upstate NY. It turns out I can get the work done locally by the only machinist trusted by Canadadan, our Fiat expert in town -- it's the same shop that did the head. Alternatively, I could get things done for less by just sticking with rings, but I had might as well go for it...

As per others' advice, I'm going with new 8.8:1 pistons. Given that I have Vick's 4-2-1 stainless exhaust (no cat or mid-resonator) and their adjustable cam pulleys, a 32/36 DFEV carb, and a Computronix igntion, I'm hoping for a bit more power, even if just from the rebuild, and properly dialed in cams (I've always just eyeballed them with the alignment marks). I'll also have them lighten the stock flywheel. I might go for a mild intake cam, too, for a bit more room at the top end, as long as it makes sense with the 8.8:1 static compression. I don't want anything lumpy at idle or to lose low end to mid torque, since I often pull the car around town in third and love to hear it breathe as it opens up throatily between 2,500 to 4,000 rather than always having it screaming over 5,500 rpm. Still, I had might as well make use of the Isky springs by having more top end. :)

Here are a few pics before/after draining fluid, disconnecting lines, and pulling the rad. I'm leaving the intake on so the machininst can port match it. I dented the grill letting the hood go too far forward, but it bent right back after I removed it.

Image
Image
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The exhaust will be tricky to remove since it's welded where there used to be a clamp (it leaked) and I may have to end up cutting it. I'll leave the transmission in place rather than pulling it with the block.

I've never had to disconnect the oil sender(s) before. Is it fairly straightforward?
Image

Should I get the clutch replaced at the same time? I don't know when, if ever, it has already been done.

Thanks and cheers,
phaetn
1974 CS1
32/36 DFEV; CompuTronix ign.
9.8:1 c/r; 40/80 intake cam w/ Isky springs
Vicks' SS header & adj. cam pulleys
A/R's progressive coils, Koni Yellow dampers
205/50-15s on CD-66 style rims
Momo wheel, Corbeau seats w/ 5 pt belt
pics and HD vids
Funcar
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:24 am
Your car is a: 1972 Fiat Spider 124
Location: Kitchener Ontario Canada

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by Funcar »

Welcome back. I have always enjoyed your posts in the past as well as the other spider guys from Ottawa. Always very educational. Looking forward to watching your posts as you do a great job of documentation. Really sorry to hear about your wife.
Glen
Kitchener ON Canada
73 Fiat Spider 124
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aj81spider
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Your car is a: 1974 Fiat 124 Spider
Location: Chelmsford, MA

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by aj81spider »

Glad you're back and really sorry about your wife.

Disconnecting the senders is straightforward. The hex wrench sections are where you unscrew it. Given all the oil I'd expect them not to be frozen in place. Mine were very easy to remove.
A.J.

1974 Fiat 124 Spider
2006 Corvette
1981 Spider 2000 (sold 2013 - never should have sold that car)
Nut124
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:39 pm
Your car is a: 1978 124 Spider 1800

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by Nut124 »

I wish your wife blessings and recovery.

A few things:

Is the throaty sound you refer to coming from the intake? Mine had a sound like that, and it was a cool sound. I checked cam timing and found intake cam retarded about 10deg. After a rebuild, I timed the same cams correctly and the throaty sound was gone, kinda a bummer, but low/mid-range torque was way up and so was top HP.

I recommend spending the time to properly time the cams. It will take some effort but is worth it.

Black oil could be from running too rich. I recommend a wideband AFR system/gauge.
18Fiatsandcounting
Posts: 3798
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 pm
Your car is a: 1969 and 1971 124 spiders
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by 18Fiatsandcounting »

I too join the list of people wishing a speedy recovery for your wife, and I'll add a few thoughts to what others have mentioned:

1) With the age of the engine and those compression numbers, along with the possibility of a bearing knock, yes, it's time for a rebuild. Especially if you want more power.

2) As noted, there's a lot of oil on the intake side of the block. A possible cause is a leaking crankcase breather system, or the hose for that that runs up to the carburetor. The hose on one of my spiders came loose one time, and it didn't take long before that side of the engine and engine bay was coated with oil. If that's the issue with yours, that much oil is also a good sign that it's time for new piston rings.

3) Engine oil will turn dark as it does its job, but if it seems to get dark pretty quickly, yes, that's another sign that combustion blowby is getting past the rings and into the oil.

4) When you put the engine back together, I wouldn't recommend welding the block to seal off the (now unneeded) coolant line for the original automatic choke, but rather seal off the nipple on the intake manifold.

5) Not everyone will agree with me on this, but you don't need a specialized machine shop to work on a Fiat engine that is essentially 1950s or 1960s engine technology. You DO need a competent machine shop of course, and they have to be working with the right specs for your engine. So, a shop that has never seen a Fiat engine before is probably not a good choice.

6) As Nut124 mentioned, with adjustable cam wheels, make sure those cams are timed right. Eyeballing it will not do it, at least if your eyesight is as bad as mine. :D

Anyway, take your time, study the specs, and ask questions. Onward!

-Bryan
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phaetn
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Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
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Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by phaetn »

First of all, thanks everyone for your kind wishes regarding my wife. She's had Stage IV (i.e. incurable) cancer for over eight years and, despite her incredible resiliency, I think we might be reaching the end of the road in 2021.

Here's a pic of a happier day just over three years ago at an autumn Italian car meet.
Image

I actually bought the Spider because I gave up motorcycles within a year after her diagnosis so as to not risk too perilous an accident -- my family just needed me around too much and our two daughters were much younger at the time. That way I could still have a fun vehicle, my wife could come along for the ride and get fresh air even when not feeling great, and the girls squeezed in the back (just on safe neighbourhood roads for short trips). We've had lots of great times together in the car and the girls are teenagers now so won't even fit in the back any more: Time for a roll bar!! :) The older girl will start driving this year. Wow -- time flies!

Thanks for the engine advice from everyone, too.

Funcar, I'll keep posting pics.

aj81spider, finally there's a blessing due to leaks besides the block not rusting! :lol: I think even after the rebuild I'll keep the sender for the extra oil gauge as the stock one has never been too accurate. I suppose I should install a new oil pump if I go with A/R's rebuild kit.

Nut124, I'm planning to have the shop degree in the cams as I've always just eyeballed it with the alignment marks. Hopefully it won't lose the "breathiness" as it's a joy to hear. :) Good tip about the wideband AFR system/gauge; I was planning to install one that would be hidden in the glovebox to stop guessing games about jetting. There's a stumble when transitioning to the secondary on sudden WOT from cruise and, since I have a non-stock "accelerating pump jet" on the secondary barrel it may be dumping too much fuel; or... it may be lean. Hence the need for the AFR gauge. :mrgreen:

18Fiatsandcounting, thanks for taking the time to enumerate suggestions. I think some of that oil under the intake is left over from when the oil dipstick seal was leaking/popping after a while, even after a new one had been installed. That is a sure sign of pressure in the crankcase, indicative of blow-by, plus my carb lunch box air filter area is full of oil from residue from the breather hose. Once it all gets sorted out I'll have to decide whether or not to vent the crank breather to the atmosphere or back into the carb, as designed.

Re. the intake, I do have the firewall-side nipple sealed with a bit of tubing. The issue is more that I think that sometimes, even with a new intake gasket, it's possible that coolant is making its way into #4 via the runner. I've had coolant leaks even after fresh head gasket changes and having the head decked, and the only solution was ultimately using an additive to plug leaks. I HATE doing that (a terrible stop-gap measure) but I made sure to disconnect the heater core and then flush out the system with new coolant without additive before reconnecting it.

The #4 spark plug always fares worse than the others (white with a greenish tinge and the electrode gets flaky and degrades) which is it either being lean or overheating; I think I remember being told that #4 always suffers more than other cylinders due to the coolant passages, especially if the heater core isn't bypassed and flow is thereby educed. Or maybe it's coolant getting sucked in at the intake mating surface. I've tried two different intakes, so it's not because of a hairline crack within them (in fact, one of the intakes was from a different year so it doesn't even have coolant passages) yet it was still burning coolant. I suspect fluid was getting into #4's intake runner where it mates to the block. I'm hoping a plug in the block will just eliminate the possibility once and for all. Can you see any downside to it? Might it create a block for coolant flow? Might the plug not be flush so create an airleak at the intake?

Thanks again, everyone.

Cheers,
phaetn
1974 CS1
32/36 DFEV; CompuTronix ign.
9.8:1 c/r; 40/80 intake cam w/ Isky springs
Vicks' SS header & adj. cam pulleys
A/R's progressive coils, Koni Yellow dampers
205/50-15s on CD-66 style rims
Momo wheel, Corbeau seats w/ 5 pt belt
pics and HD vids
18Fiatsandcounting
Posts: 3798
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 pm
Your car is a: 1969 and 1971 124 spiders
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by 18Fiatsandcounting »

Thanks for sharing your story phaetn. I lost my younger brother to cancer almost 10 years ago, and it's tough. Anyway, we're always here to listen, and with a bit of luck, maybe even help you with your Fiat!

Sounds like you're on the right track, but I did pick up on the comment about the #4 spark plug being white with a greenish tinge. Unless you're running some totally whack gasoline smuggled into the country, that isn't common. I've never seen a difference in color between cylinders in a well-running Fiat engine, but I have heard that the #4 cylinder can either run cooler or hotter (depending on who you ask). I know antifreeze is greenish in color, but it's just weird if that was the cause of the greenish tinge due to a coolant leak. So, you definitely need to track down whether you have a leak into the coolant from the combustion chamber. Any bubbles appearing in your coolant, that would indicate combustion gases entering the coolant passageways?

On sealing up the coolant passage: Are we talking about sealing up the block, or the cylinder head?

And yes, a leaky dipstick oil seal is also a great way to coat the driver's side of the engine bay in oil. Prevents rust, just as FIAT intended!

By the way, I came across an earlier post from you (2015 I think) about reupholstering a door card. I'm doing mine as we speak, and the postings were helpful.

-Bryan
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phaetn
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Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
Location: Ottawa, ON Canada

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by phaetn »

Coolio -- that's what so great about this forum -- getting the confidence from seeing what others have done.

You're absolutely right about the passage! Brain freeze here in the Great White North. It would be a plug for the *head* not the block. Plugging any galley in the block sounds like a good way to grenade the engine. :) doh!

I did once have bubbling in the coolant and that was from a head gasket failure and the oil went milky, too. Pics are on Flickr somewhere. Luckily it happened only a couple of blocks from my house so I could limp home on two cylinders, and that was after a long country drive to meet others for breakfast who were driving their Spider across North America. More than once I've had a coolant leak that hasn't been that kind of failure, just a bit of a miss and white smoke/vapour out the pipe that filled the garage and didn't settle down so I knew it was sucking some coolant.

I bought a coolant pressure tester from a friend a while back and it has been a God-send. You can load up the pressure on the rad when everything is cold and then start looking/listening for leaks. Truly handy!

Cheers,
phaetn
1974 CS1
32/36 DFEV; CompuTronix ign.
9.8:1 c/r; 40/80 intake cam w/ Isky springs
Vicks' SS header & adj. cam pulleys
A/R's progressive coils, Koni Yellow dampers
205/50-15s on CD-66 style rims
Momo wheel, Corbeau seats w/ 5 pt belt
pics and HD vids
Nut124
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:39 pm
Your car is a: 1978 124 Spider 1800

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by Nut124 »

Phaetn, unless your shop is a Fiat (race) engine builder who is used to doing it on Fiats, they will not want to do the cam timing. Too time consuming. It is easiest done with the engine on a stand. It is a lot harder to do when the engine is in the car. The biggest hassle is getting a timing wheel to reliably attach the the crank and stay centered and having a reliable pointer.

This work is not difficult, but can be very time consuming.
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dinghyguy
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by dinghyguy »

Hi phaetn

First and foremost my best wishes to your wife and you.....family is way more important than a car, even a Fiat, but if it keeps you sane through otherwise hard times so be it.

Hello to Spiderdan as well, the picture we took after the nice breakfast before Mike and i left Ottawa In Mark comes up on my background shuffle regularly.

I don't think you have any real problems facing you, but hey it is a fiat. and yes i would do the clutch. I did it on Mark when i got back to Van and i am glad i did. Think about the input bearing on the tranny too.....and if you want scope creep there is the guibo.....etc.

I just finished building a new garage with hoist so i can work on Mark and other cars (i picked up a volvo 1800es as well) so i can certainly feel your itch.

On the way across to Van we visited Jon Logan at Midwest, nice shop and i would certainly use them if the freight from Canada to the US was not so insane.

anyhow good luck and take care of the Mrs.

Oh and dont believe anything 18fiatsandcounting says :) .......Bryan is from california (strike 1) and has helped me out (strike 2) .........do i need to say more?

cheers
Dinghyguy
1981 Red Spider "Redbob"
1972 blue Volvo 1800ES "Bob"
1998 Red Ford Ranger
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phaetn
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Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
Location: Ottawa, ON Canada

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by phaetn »

Ha! Yes, it was you with whom we had breakfast that I mentioned earlier. Sorry, I've been off the board for a good long while and have forgotten names (not that I remember them at the best of times). I admire your confidence in the cross-continental voyage! :)

Thanks for the advice re. clutch and input bearing. I've changed the Guibo before and it's easily accessible so I'm not too concerned about that. When the time comes, I also have a spare 4.3:1 diff on hand that I bought thanks to the generosity of Spidernut, also in CA. I'm still getting thunks from the back end and can't figure out if its the diff, prop shaft cruciforms, or a suspension issue. Didn't get a chance to look into this summer as it wasn't on the road much due to quarantines.

Any pics of your garage and lift? I'm jealous! It's a dream of mine to rebuild the garage and put in a lift. I think it might just happen. Do you recommend a four post drive-on or a two-post?

Cheers,
phaetn
1974 CS1
32/36 DFEV; CompuTronix ign.
9.8:1 c/r; 40/80 intake cam w/ Isky springs
Vicks' SS header & adj. cam pulleys
A/R's progressive coils, Koni Yellow dampers
205/50-15s on CD-66 style rims
Momo wheel, Corbeau seats w/ 5 pt belt
pics and HD vids
18Fiatsandcounting
Posts: 3798
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 pm
Your car is a: 1969 and 1971 124 spiders
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by 18Fiatsandcounting »

dinghyguy wrote:Oh and dont believe anything 18fiatsandcounting says :) .......Bryan is from california (strike 1) and has helped me out (strike 2) .........do i need to say more?
Ha! You have a point: anyone who monkeyed with 18+ Fiats must be somewhat "off"... OK, surf's up, and the waves are gnarly, Dude! 8)

-Bryan
SteinOnkel
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:31 pm
Your car is a: 1978 124 Spider 1800

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by SteinOnkel »

18Fiatsandcounting wrote:
dinghyguy wrote:Oh and dont believe anything 18fiatsandcounting says :) .......Bryan is from california (strike 1) and has helped me out (strike 2) .........do i need to say more?
Ha! You have a point: anyone who monkeyed with 18+ Fiats must be somewhat "off"... OK, surf's up, and the waves are gnarly, Dude! 8)

-Bryan
Lol in Livermore? Unlikely.
SteinOnkel
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:31 pm
Your car is a: 1978 124 Spider 1800

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by SteinOnkel »

@OP

Any particular reason to stick with low cr pistons? Seems a good opportunity for some extra power.
18Fiatsandcounting
Posts: 3798
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 pm
Your car is a: 1969 and 1971 124 spiders
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Engine rebuild (questions)

Post by 18Fiatsandcounting »

SteinOnkel wrote:Lol in Livermore? Unlikely.
Santa Cruz is only an hour and a half away! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p0hr1q ... e=emb_logo

-Bryan
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