Odd Washer on One Side of Engine Mount

[RRoller123]

I have this odd washer under the passenger side of my engine mount. NOT against the mount itself, mind you, but on the underside of the bracket, where it is sandwiched between the bracket and nut and lock washer that hold the engine mount in place. So it has NO effect on engine height, position, etc.

I say it is odd because it is quite thick, 4mm, and there is only one, located on the passenger side. It is stamped, not machined. There was not a similar one on the Driver's side. Is this a factory part, put in to distribute the load on the cross member, presumably to reduce potential cracking? If so, it would appear that I am missing the driver's side one. And if not factory, it was added by a PO. And I think it is a great idea!

Anyone else have these, or this?

Thanks, Pete

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Pete, when I first saw your picture, I was thinking it was one of those washers that you find between the seat rails and the seat bottom frame. But, as I read your description, that's obviously not what it is. I have to admit you've got me stumped as I have never come across such a beast on an engine mount. As for helping to spread out the load on the engine mounts, could be, although I thought most cracks occurred where the crossmember bolts to the "frame"?

-Bryan

[RRoller123]

That's what I was thinking too, but you know, it is a great idea! This thing is really thick, and it may not be hardened steel, but it certainly is not soft, and it is about an inch in diameter, much larger than the nut and lock washer, so it would do a really good job of distributing the LOCAL forces. There are no cracks where it was used, so unless I hear otherwise, I am going to try and source something similar and use it on the driver's side as well.

Thanks,

Pete

[RRoller123]

OK, so these are a really good idea, they distribute the forces across a larger area of the cross member than just the nut and lock washer would. Talked with Csaba and we agree that PO must have added it and likely the other side was lost on disassembly, or was never there. So, having 1, I ordered 9 more, from Belmetric, "Part Number WFEHV10X28CLZ - Fender Washer HARDENED THICK Zinc, 10X28" enough to do 5 total cars. Tim Aucella and I will need 4 pieces, so that leaves 6, enough for three (3) more cars, if any of you folks want a pair. They cost me $12.59 with shipping, or $1.40 each. If anyone wants a pair, let me know and I will just send a pair in a std USPS envelope at cost, $2.80 a pair, plus a stamp @ $0.55, total $3.35 a pair.

Pete

[howelljd]

Pete,
I'm working on two 124s right now - glutton for punishment - so I'll take two pairs if still available.
Cheers,
Jonathan

[RRoller123]

Send me a PM, and as soon as they come in, I will send them along. They are hardened steel, zinc plated, so they should do the trick.

The mounting holes on the Engine Mount Bracket ON THE ENGINE are pretty tight, not much room for movement there, but on the CROSSMEMBER, they are quite sloppy, elongated and much wider than the 3/8 stud, so there is a lot of possibility for movement. (this ties to another post I have on the topic of engine alignment, there is a great deal of room here for sloppy misalignment of the block)

Use of a thick, larger diameter, hardened steel washer makes a lot of sense.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Thanks for the pictures. I'd have to pull the engine mounts to verify on my '69 and '71, but my recollection is that the hole for the engine mount stud isn't nearly as big as what you've shown for your '80. Perhaps the earlier spiders had much less "leeway" in terms of engine mount movement relative to the crossmember bracket?

Regardless, spreading the load such as you've suggested is likely a great idea. I also suggested this trick a while back, for where the door hinges attach to the door (also a weak point). Thinner washers, though, so that the door doesn't protrude from the rest of the body.

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

I just did my engine mounts on the '78. That looks about right.

Not sure how you are going to put that washer in.

Because, ho boy, let me tell you the story of how I put the bottom nut onto the mount. Another "whyyyyy would you design it like this!?!?" moment par excellence. Two extensions (last one being wobbly), an old m10 nut in the socket and the one you actually want to go onto the stud on top of that. Then you ever so gently slide it into place - at an angle of course - and after you've dropped the nut into the cross member about eight times you will learn how to use the force and put it on.

It's super fun times all around, especially on the driver's side where you have a plethora of components in the way...

[RRoller123]

I am going to try putting the new engine mounts on the the cross member, very loosely, with just a thread or two engaged, and hopefully that gives enough play that the short block can be dropped onto the studs. They can slide inwards and outwards. When removing the short block, it was necessary to remove one of the engine mounts, just removing the top nuts doesn't allow the block to lift off because they lean inwards. Another brilliant piece of hardship design. LOL. If this doesn't work, the washers can be taped into place underneath, before anything is installed, it is pretty easy to get the washer in place ahead of time. Plenty of room there for fingers when the block is out. Then stuff some rags or whatever into the socket, to hold the nut from falling down inside it, and install and tighten it from below, as normally done, after the block is dropped on and aligned. The lock washer might be a challenge, but I guess that might be taped in place too? Using removable Loctite in any case.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Then you ever so gently slide it into place - at an angle of course - and after you've dropped the nut into the cross member about eight times you will learn how to use the force and put it on.

Hmmmm. Hard to tell. Always in motion is the bottom engine mount washer... Do, or do not. There is no try.

I used to be able to do a pretty good Yoda impression, but that's not going to help much here. But, for your viewing pleasure, here's how I approach getting the washers and nuts on the bottom engine mount stud:
1. Make sure the bottom stud on the mount is clean (nut goes on easily), and install the mount.
2. Put the nut inside your socket (17mm?), using a 6" socket extension. No need for the ratchet at this point.
3. Using a piece of black electrical tape, use this to secure the flat washer and the lock washer onto the end of that socket. Don't wrap too much tape, just enough to hold the washers to the socket with the washer holes centered.
4. Gently stick this whole thing through the crossmember hole up to the bottom engine mount stud, and carefully work the washers onto the stud. Insert some more and start turning, and the nut should start to grab. Once it does, you can remove the socket and extension, remove the tape, put your ratchet on the extension, and then tighten the nut all the way.
5. If the tape does fall off into the crossmember, you can either just leave it there or fish it out with a piece of wire or the like.

-Bryan

[RRoller123]

Yep, that makes complete sense! The only thing I will add is that I think that the engine mount can be threaded on, at least to start it, all from the top. I will test this out this afternoon before I paint the cross member. Tightening obviously has to be done from below through the access port, but I think it can be started all from the top. And then again.....

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Yep, that makes complete sense!

The Yoda quotes or the technical stuff...?

-Bryan

[RRoller123]

Both!

[SteinOnkel]

I opted to go for a nylon lock nut because no way no how was I going to fiddle around with a lock washer.

But yeah, Master Yo- err Bryan, our methods seem to align.

Another needlessly difficult job courtesy of Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino.

[RRoller123]

KEPS or Nyloc is a really good idea. I am going to source those. The engine mounts, with heavy washer, lock washer and nut, can go on easily from the top, with just a few threads engaged, untightened, by hand. Rag keeps the parts out of the cross member.

Hopefully this will allow enough slop in the mounts that the block can be placed over them and then the mounts tightened down to both the cross member and the engine, after block alignment, without having to remove one of the mounts. We will see eventually if that is the case.

The engine mount studs cantilever steeply inwards, so the block can't either go on or come off once the mounts are tightened down. Come to think of it, this is probably an intentional safety feature, but it makes installation a pita.