How Much Rust is Too Much?

[neoknight88]

I've got a 1975 124 Spider that has pretty much the whole driver's floor pan rusted out. There's about 8 to 10 inches of hole on the outside of the driver's seat. What's funny is that the seat feels firm and secure in the car even with the rust. I'll add pictures tomorrow, but I'm wondering how much rust the body can take before it's too rusted to fix?

[TX82FIAT]

The floor pans can be rusty if the roof leaked or it was stored outside for a period of time. The first place to look for rust is in the shock towers under the wheel well liners up front. The support frame (uniframe) under the rocker panels under the doors as well as the body around the rear wheel wells. do the doors open and close well in a lined up manner. Look at the areas near the clutch pedal and the cross member. Cross member is a big area of concern. I had one welded by a prior owner and did not figure it out for a few months. If the structure of the car is in good shape and the rust is limited to the floor pans then that is not to bad. Just be careful, in my opinion, once rust spreads to structural areas or expensive areas like the trunk lid I would pass.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I agree with TX82FIAT. Floor pan or rocker panel rust can be fixed (or replaced), but if there is significant rust on any of the suspension mounting points (shock towers), structural "frame", or engine crossmember, that would be a deal breaker in my mind.

-Bryan

[neoknight88]

I've got some pictures linked below. I need to take off the wheels to get a good look at the strut towers, but the back ones look solid from inside the trunk and I didn't hear any crunching or see any rust fall off when I did a suspension push test before buying the car. The floor pans are rough, especially the driver's side, and I haven't yet checked under the rocker panels to see how it looks under those. There are some bubbly spots on the driver's side rocker and a rust through on the passenger's side rocker, though it feels like there's a lot of solid material around those spots.

The engine bay is dirty but fairly rust free outside of the exhaust, and the trunk is the best looking of all. There's only one rust hole to the right side of the trunk lid (probably from where someone put the trunk kick stand and wore away the paint) and a hole in just behind the rear passenger wheel in the fender.

The doors both have rust spots that suggest I'm going to be pulling off the skins and patching the door body before putting on either a patched door skin or a completely new one.

https://imgur.com/a/YdJ63r5

Updated the image link.

[SteinOnkel]

So unfortunately only one of your pictures comes up. It's the front shot showing most of the car.

For my money, I wouldn't touch it. I have yet to see an old European car that looks like that on the outside without serious structural rust. That coupled with your description, I would strongly suggest getting a better chassis.

That's all very easy for me to say, as here in California cars generally don't rust. My spider is pretty much rust-free...

Cheers
Steiny

[neoknight88]

It's a bit late for that as I already purchased it. Fortunately, if the body is shot, the engine does work and can be sold, the wheels are in good shape, and the transmission looks to be functional and in good shape. If nothing else, I can part it out.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Looks like a good parts car, but in order to restore this to a driveable (enjoyable) condition would take a lot of money and work. One item that I noted is that the car seems to sit fairly high up off the wheels, almost like some special springs might have been installed. Perhaps 2 inches or so from stock. Or is there something else going on?

-Bryan

[neoknight88]

In order to reduce the speed at which it rusts, I have it on jack stands to get it off the ground and allow quicker airflow under it. Oddly, they aren't visible in the photos, but I could see them when I took the pictures.

I'm considering doing the body work myself to reduce cost. The only issue there is finding a MIG welder that I can access and a place to weld in. I've taken a closer look at the rust and while it is concerning, it doesn't look as bad as I first thought. Some places that I thought were weak in the floor boards are structurally strong, and some of the places with the worst visible rust are mainly on the surface. I still need to strip some more parts off and poke and prod some more areas of the car, but it's looking better than I originally thought.

[TheBender]

Here are a few of his images in case it helps.....

[TX82FIAT]

Glad to hear the rust is not as bad as originally thought. Sounds like you have some of the skills needed to restore the car. I should have asked this before in conjunction with the rust reply. Does the car fire up and drive? After establishing a sound structure you have mechanical and then electrical and finally cosmetic. Looking at the pics and having some experience. I would ask if you have weighed the sentimental value or this particular car with the economics of full restoration (both your time and significant material)? I only ask this because while the car is sound, it looks like it could cost several thousand to fix cosmetic, mechanical and electrical items. If not married to this particular car, you may be better served buying one in a little better shape and in good running order. After done with second car restoration, part out the first. May save you a couple thousand dollars. I'm sure you can restore the car beautifully, it at some point can become a matter of cost.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Yes, I see know that the car appears to be on jack stands in the picture, which would definitely explain the appearance of "riding tall"...!

Just as a point of reference: I bought my '71 spider back in 1987, and it was in roughly the same condition as yours in terms of rust, interior, top, paint, etc. In fact, it had been registered with the DMV as "salvaged" which means I had to prove its road-worthiness at a special DMV field office before I could even get it registered (functional brakes, lighting, safety stuff like seatbelts, etc.). I eventually got this sorted out, and I drove the car from 1988 until the late 1990s, at which point I put it aside to eventually restore it. Long story short: About 2 years ago, I started restoring it, and it's now a very nice car, although it still needs a new top and paint job. That's the good news. The not-as-good news is that this took 2 years (on and off), and probably $3,000. But, it has all new suspension components (front and rear), rocker panels, brakes, trim, and the interior looks very respectable for its age.

So I guess my point is that you can take almost anything and restore it to a very nice condition, but it takes time and money. I'll leave it to you as to whether your new car fits that bill, or whether it makes more sense to keep it as a parts car.

-Bryan

[chrisg]

Usually that answer is a function of some complex equation involving location, owner's welding/fabricating abilities, budget & objectives with the car (enjoy the process or get in & drive asap). I've seen some amazing restorations/rescues of cars that I would never consider anything more than a parts car & I've seen people in arid regions turn down cars that eastern US folks call a solid project car.

It is rarely floors alone so even though they aren't "structural" there are a lot of structural ties close by. Front shock towers & rear suspension connection points are the pieces that make the most difference.

[neoknight88]

@TX82FIAT: The car does start though there is an issue with the fuel pump. You can put some gas in the carb and it'll crank over nicely. It has a solid 4 cylinder idle for the 15 seconds that it runs. As far as the rest of the drivetrain, I don't know offhand if it's in running condition because the engine won't run for long enough to really test. I'm considering getting a new pump and rigging it up as a temporary test so I can check the gearbox and diff.

As far as the value of the car, I weighed the costs and the pros and cons before I bought it. I estimate that it will take anywhere from $4000 to $8000 to restore this car, and since this is a project that I plan on doing piecemeal over the next 3 to 5 years as a project, I'm willing to risk it (assuming the subframe is sound and the structure of the car isn't compromised). If the structure is compromised, I'll definitely look at getting one in better shape and using this one as a parts/learner for how to tear the better one apart for the work it would need.

@18Fiatsandcounting: I'm going to have to get a bonded title for this car, which I've done before and didn't require anything more than a bill of sale and the purchase of a bond for the value of the car in case someone comes up to claim it with a title.

@chrisg: I've been considering the work that will go into it. If I had to get a bead roller, english wheel, hammers, dollies, and all the other tools to completely fabricate my own sheet metal parts, I'd probably be passing on working on this car. As it stands, I'm looking at renting a MIG welder and buying gas so I can repair the rust issues.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

@18Fiatsandcounting: I'm going to have to get a bonded title for this car, which I've done before and didn't require anything more than a bill of sale and the purchase of a bond for the value of the car in case someone comes up to claim it with a title.

Fair enough, and I didn't mean to raise any concern. My issue was likely specific to California, and the issue was that the previous owner had officially junked the car ("salvaged" in DMV lingo), but had never actually towed it off to the scrap yard. So, as far as the DMV was concerned, the car was in a junk yard or a car crusher. Since I was clueless at that time, I just bought the car, got the title, went to the DMV to register it in my name, only to have them tell me, "Oh, this car's been junked. You'll have to prove that it is still roadworthy." You know the rest of the story. The good news out of all this is that the car only cost me $150, and it actually ran fine.

Anyway, good luck with it, and keep us posted as the story unfolds.

-Bryan

[neoknight88]

Glad to hear the rust is not as bad as originally thought. Sounds like you have some of the skills needed to restore the car. I should have asked this before in conjunction with the rust reply. Does the car fire up and drive? After establishing a sound structure you have mechanical and then electrical and finally cosmetic. Looking at the pics and having some experience. I would ask if you have weighed the sentimental value or this particular car with the economics of full restoration (both your time and significant material)? I only ask this because while the car is sound, it looks like it could cost several thousand to fix cosmetic, mechanical and electrical items. If not married to this particular car, you may be better served buying one in a little better shape and in good running order. After done with second car restoration, part out the first. May save you a couple thousand dollars. I'm sure you can restore the car beautifully, it at some point can become a matter of cost.

When you asked this question, the car didn't run unless you poured gas into the carb, but I have since ratchet strapped a jerry can to the front grill, run a fuel line from that to the mechanical fuel pump I installed, and have gotten the car to run and drive. At this point, I'm not looking for a show car as much as I'm looking for a fun car to work on, and so far, this car has been a lot of fun to work on. Purists be damned, I'm going to keep my roadkill driving by restoring it to a safe, drivable vehicle, and worrying about pretties far down the line.