Large Ground Connection - Engine Bay

[lugbutz]

Hi
Have a question about where to attach the large ground wire in the engine bay.

There are small grounds on:
- Right side by the Ignition Coil
- Intake Plenum
- Coolant temp Mount
- After market heavy gauge ground (10 or so) from Trunk to engine mount
- Ground from starter to Engine mount

So I have 1 spare ground cable also heavy gauge (12-14) Where does this likely go? I currently have it attached from the Alternator to Intake Plenum.... Is this ok? should it be somewhere else?

[spider2081]

Fiat publication titled " Spider 2000 Electrical Diagnostic Manual 1980-1981" should show all of the ground connections for your car.
It is available on the following sites
http://www.njfiats.org/joomla/ under "resources"
and Miriafiori.com in their library. Their library is available for members only.

One point I could make is not every black wire Fiat used in the Spider is a "ground". Example There is a black wire that connects the alternator output to fuse 10 and a black wire that connects the alternator output to the starter solenoids battery terminal.
The engines primary ground is welded to the underside of the drivers floor and connects to the transmission bell housing cover. Some times this ground has been relocated to a starter mounting bolt.
Hope this helps

[scrapironchef]

Example There is a black wire that connects the alternator output to fuse 10 and a black wire that connects the alternator output to the starter solenoids battery terminal.

That wire on my 79 is in fact dark green, get it a little dirty and it looks black.

Larry

[spider2081]

That wire on my 79 is in fact dark green, get it a little dirty and it looks black.

Yes the black wire that connects the alternator output to the starter solenoid is often in a dark green protective sleeve. I think the wire itself has black insulation.

[lugbutz]

So if I replaced the OEM Starter with a WOSP high torque start which doesnt use a Solenoid... I can pitch the ground? Or Should I Move it to another location?

FYI... I currently have it attached to ground POD the drivers side

[spider2081]

So if I replaced the OEM Starter with a WOSP high torque start which doesnt use a Solenoid...

dis the WOSP starter come with installation instructions/wire diagram?

[DieselSpider]

So if I replaced the OEM Starter with a WOSP high torque start which doesnt use a Solenoid... I can pitch the ground? Or Should I Move it to another location?

FYI... I currently have it attached to ground POD the drivers side

You still need the ground mounted to a heavy stud and potentially an external starter relay capable of switching the the 40 Amp pull and dealing with the 426 Amp max load if you replace the solenoid engaged starter with a inertia type starter without the solenoid. The lead from the ignition switch to the solenoid is barely capable of switching the original 10 Amp solenoid mounted on the starter.

However the WosPerformance LMS084 starter for the Fiat Spider has a solenoid just like the original from what their website indicates.

http://www.wosperformance.co.uk/product ... lications/

It is based on the 1kw Denso unit which has the solenoid connection on it right above the main terminal with the tail end of the solenoid shown protruding from the back cover to the reduction gear section:

[lugbutz]

This how I have it fitted from wosp

Fitting Instructions

The ‘WOSP’ high torque starter is a brand new direct replacement to the original application. It is based on a modern high torque gear reduction design which is pre-engaged, meaning it has a solenoid as part of the starter motor. It can be wired in two ways to suit either a modern ‘pre-engaged’ type wiring arrangement or alternatively can be run in conjunction with an original bulkhead mounted type solenoid in applications still running an inertia type starter.

This starter is available to suit over 200 applications so there is an array of terminal types and positions available and the starter offers an infinite number of positions it can be mounted in due to its ability to spin 360 degrees on it’s mounting flange plate. We have provided a scribe line on the front mounting flange plate which shows the correct PCD to re-drill and re-mount the starter if necessary. These are available as a ’multi-hole’ version however we prefer not to offer this as standard as it can greatly reduce the strength of the mounting and will not always offer you the exact position you may require.

As a rule, these starters will all come with two available connections. 1 x large M8 stud type post with a 13mm flange nut and along side 1 x 6.5mm male lucar terminal housed in a plastic insulator block. The large stud post is for the heavy duty battery cable and the smaller terminal for the ignition ‘exciter’ wire.

Fitting as a replacement for a pre-engaged type starter:
This starter operates in a way that the battery positive is always connected to the large stud on the side of the solenoid and it merely takes a small positive feed from the ignition switch or starter button to energise the unit in order for it to operate. The design of the unit means that it will fully engage before it begins to crank. The shaft extends on a helical spline that rotates the pinion gear as it throws forward. We also machine a chamfer onto the leading edge of the pinion gear in order to aid the pinion meshing with the ring gear. There is also a spring built in within the pinion gear enabling it to compress if it strikes a tooth on the ring gear and mesh once it has rotated enough.

Disconnect the battery in order to prevent a short circuit.
Remove all wiring from the original starter and then remove the starter.
Fit the WOSP high torque starter in place of the original item.
Fit the main power feed cable to the M8 stud post ensuring not to over-tighten this nut. Over-tightening can twist the internal solenoid contact reducing the efficiency of the unit or causing it to fail altogether.
Fit the solenoid trigger wire to the 6.5mm male lucar post located in the black housing.
If there is an additional wire that was attached to an even smaller terminal on your existing starter motor solenoid then this is most likely to be what is know as a ‘cold start’ terminal or ballast feed for the ignition system. This is so in extreme circumstances when the engine is particularly hard to turn over the starter will feed the ignition with a live feed whilst cranking in order to aid the engine in firing. Due to our high torque starter drawing less current from the battery re-connecting this terminal is not strictly necessary and it can be merely insulated and not re-connected. If attaching this wire is required then a cold start terminal can be fitted at the customers request.

[DieselSpider]

This how I have it fitted from wosp

Fitting Instructions

The ‘WOSP’ high torque starter is a brand new direct replacement to the original application. It is based on a modern high torque gear reduction design which is pre-engaged, meaning it has a solenoid as part of the starter motor. It can be wired in two ways to suit either a modern ‘pre-engaged’ type wiring arrangement or alternatively can be run in conjunction with an original bulkhead mounted type solenoid in applications still running an inertia type starter.

This starter is available to suit over 200 applications so there is an array of terminal types and positions available and the starter offers an infinite number of positions it can be mounted in due to its ability to spin 360 degrees on it’s mounting flange plate. We have provided a scribe line on the front mounting flange plate which shows the correct PCD to re-drill and re-mount the starter if necessary. These are available as a ’multi-hole’ version however we prefer not to offer this as standard as it can greatly reduce the strength of the mounting and will not always offer you the exact position you may require.

As a rule, these starters will all come with two available connections. 1 x large M8 stud type post with a 13mm flange nut and along side 1 x 6.5mm male lucar terminal housed in a plastic insulator block. The large stud post is for the heavy duty battery cable and the smaller terminal for the ignition ‘exciter’ wire.

Fitting as a replacement for a pre-engaged type starter:
This starter operates in a way that the battery positive is always connected to the large stud on the side of the solenoid and it merely takes a small positive feed from the ignition switch or starter button to energise the unit in order for it to operate. The design of the unit means that it will fully engage before it begins to crank. The shaft extends on a helical spline that rotates the pinion gear as it throws forward. We also machine a chamfer onto the leading edge of the pinion gear in order to aid the pinion meshing with the ring gear. There is also a spring built in within the pinion gear enabling it to compress if it strikes a tooth on the ring gear and mesh once it has rotated enough.

Disconnect the battery in order to prevent a short circuit.
Remove all wiring from the original starter and then remove the starter.
Fit the WOSP high torque starter in place of the original item.
Fit the main power feed cable to the M8 stud post ensuring not to over-tighten this nut. Over-tightening can twist the internal solenoid contact reducing the efficiency of the unit or causing it to fail altogether.
Fit the solenoid trigger wire to the 6.5mm male lucar post located in the black housing.
If there is an additional wire that was attached to an even smaller terminal on your existing starter motor solenoid then this is most likely to be what is know as a ‘cold start’ terminal or ballast feed for the ignition system. This is so in extreme circumstances when the engine is particularly hard to turn over the starter will feed the ignition with a live feed whilst cranking in order to aid the engine in firing. Due to our high torque starter drawing less current from the battery re-connecting this terminal is not strictly necessary and it can be merely insulated and not re-connected. If attaching this wire is required then a cold start terminal can be fitted at the customers request.

So it does have an internal solenoid and works exactly like the original except its gear reduction: "Over-tightening can twist the internal solenoid contact reducing the efficiency of the unit or causing it to fail altogether.

Fit the solenoid trigger wire to the 6.5mm male lucar post located in the black housing."

You have mentioned in your second post that the starter you ordered did not use a solenoid which is why I brought it up.

To reduce the load on the ignition switch from the solenoid which can be a 10 amp load its best to have a relay trigger the solenoid with fused power off the battery and not through the internal fuse panel. If there is already a relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid then I would leave it and if not then it would be best to add one.

The trigger lead directly from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid is a major point of failure on these cars causing premature ignition switch failure or failure of the starter solenoid to engage so that it also fails prematurely along with damages the flywheel ring gear and starter drive gear.

[spider2081]

You have mentioned in your second post that the starter you ordered did not use a solenoid which is why I brought it up.

Same here that is why I asked if there were instructions. I think Dieselspider suggestions are what I would try.

[lugbutz]

Ya sorry I apologize....Im a noob mechanic.... so what is obvious to others I sometimes overlook I read internal meant no solenoid.

Anyway.... I have it wired as defined in the instructions provided with the battery direct to the bolt and the Lucar fitting.

Diesel... If I understand what you are saying it is
1. Dont run a connection directly to starter masterbolt as defined by WOSP.
2. Install a relay w a fuse along the line between the Ignition switch and Starter if there is not one there already.

I think there is a relay (Dbl relay next to the ECU) Brown wire into dbl relay, Im thinking it runs directly from the ignition switch. (I check to be sure and report back) Im pretty sure there is no fuse.... I think I could easily add in a inline fuse before (??) or after (??) the relay

[DieselSpider]

Ya sorry I apologize....Im a noob mechanic.... so what is obvious to others I sometimes overlook I read internal meant no solenoid.

Anyway.... I have it wired as defined in the instructions provided with the battery direct to the bolt and the Lucar fitting.

Diesel... If I understand what you are saying it is
1. Dont run a connection directly to starter masterbolt as defined by WOSP.
2. Install a relay w a fuse along the line between the Ignition switch and Starter if there is not one there already.

I think there is a relay (Dbl relay next to the ECU) Brown wire into dbl relay, Im thinking it runs directly from the ignition switch. (I check to be sure and report back) Im pretty sure there is no fuse.... I think I could easily add in a inline fuse before (??) or after (??) the relay

The heavy masterbolt or what I know as the main lug on the starter should have a direct feed from the battery. The solenoid lug on the starter should be fed by a relay that gets its power via a 10 or 15 amp fuse which can be connected to the main lug on the starter and then the relays magnetic coil triggered by the original wire from the ignition switch.

My Spider having an overhead cam turbo diesel has a 2 kw gear reduction starter which draws more power than the starter on a V10. I had to add a number of relays under the hood to power the high current draw diesel components such as the starter solenoid and glow plugs along with the more common headlights, etc. I pull a small trailer with mine too so I added relays that draw directly from the battery in the trunk to the tail lights so the original tail lights and the trailers lights are much brighter now.

I don't have a double relay which I thought was for the electronic fuel injection since mine has a mechanical injector pump that is driven by the timing belt. My Franken Diesel has no computer electronics of any kind to make it run.

The starter on most Spiders as far as I know is commonly triggered directly by the ignition switch unless a prior owner already put their own relay in to help promote long solenoid life.

[lugbutz]

Thank you everyone for the help