Mean Time Between Failures

[nelsonj]

My wife is always telling me to "sell it" because I spend a good amount of hobby time working on Bella. Most of the work is me doing something for fun, but some of the work is because I can't get the car on the road without first fixing something.
After reading about the recent cross-country ride, I did a rough estimate of just how often something breaks on my car that keeps it off the road until repaired.

Below is a list of recent breakdowns, the approx mileage, the issue, the cost of repair, and what I did to fix it. This doesn't include the routine maintenance, such as oil changes, spark plugs, breaks, hoses, belts, timing, etc.

Miles Issue Cost Repair
41200 Fuel filler hose $45 Replace hose
40800 Voltage Regulator $30 Replace voltage regulator
39000 Cracked downpipe $300 Buy new down pipe, new custom exhaust
35000 Leaking master cylinder $125 Replace M/C, bleed breaks
30000 Leaking break cylinder $25 Rebuild leaking breaks
29600 T Belt Slip $1,200 Rebuild head, new head gasket, timing belt

Mean time between failure: 1,933 miles

My bottom line, on average, I've had a issue about every 2,000 miles (1,933 miles) that kept me off the road until repaired.

Has anyone else kept records? I wonder how this compares with other cars.

Peace.
Out.

[dinghyguy]

Sorry to have got you thinking......
If it makes you feel any better I knew when we left on the 6000km trip the following would need to eventually be done to make me happy.
Exhaust upgrade & get rid of heat shield rattle
Trans input bearing replacement (might as well do clutch too)
Brake rotors and caliper rebuild
Electrical sorting to clean and upgrade a few things

The only parts we really did on the trip were some of the electrical items to ensure proper lights all round so the items above remain

And then there is the minor stuff
Lube door and window mechanisms maybe this weekend
Restuff seats
Rebuild door cards

And finally the stuff I am ignoring but might bite me soon
Front suspension work not yet evaluated fully
Rust repair on rear fenders including inner fender

So don't feel too bad I still have lots to do but except for the tranny work and the stuff I am ignoring most will be a partial day at a time I hope with a drivable car by evening.
We shall see

So wanna trade cars??

Dinghyguy (without Mike)

[Nanonevol]

Has anyone else kept records? I wonder how this compares with other cars.

Most other cars of this age have already gone through the crusher.

[nelsonj]

Please let me clarify:
I wonder how this compares with the OTHERS DRIVING THESE CARS here on the forum.
I'll note that most of the stuff that failed was ORIGINAL to the car, 40+ years old. So having it fail at this stages is actually sort of a compliment.

[DieselSpider]

Nelson - To many, those items were likely in need of attention when you first got the car so would have been taken care of as working out the kinks left behind by the previous owner. Its been two years since I have had a breakdown and the one I recently had (brake lights short out causing stalling) is from a kink left by the previous owners hacking the wiring harness and was on my round-to-it list however it was just a nuisance and did not require a tow. Car has about 250,000 to 500,000 miles on it (odometer was disconnected years ago so its hard to tell). Amazingly reliable as a daily driver outshining many of my coworkers brand new cars right off the showroom floor.

[seabeelt]

The only one of your items I wouldn't consider maintenance is the T belt and head rebuild.
Had to replace the MC on my wife's Audi at 129 k miles. It was ALOT more than 35 bucks

My latest was tires. Turned out what I had on the car ( came with it when we bought it) were almost 20 years old. So an afternoon putting new Kuhmos on some CD3s put a smile on my face

Last year it was a carb fire. Had to have a tow. Replaced computronix temporarily while mark had it repaired. Rebuilt the carbs and put her back on the road 3 k miles ago

Have had intermittent alternator issues but finally have a decent working one 3k miles or so ago

Still have some minor electrical gremlins but not often enough to rip things apart.

Current issue of which I will start a new thread is rear brakes keep wearing out about ever 2500 miles. Particularly the right rear

Body needs considerable work and I may get to it maybe this year or next but other than that I drive the snot out of it whenever I get the chance Not abusive mind, just reving up to yellow line between shifts if I have the chance just so I can hear those dual idfs roar

[lglade]

Anything with a rubber hose or rubber seal is going to be suspect on a forty year old car. So I've been making a significant effort to replace all rubber parts on my car just to enhance the reliability. It has yet to leave me stranded (knock on wood), and I attribute some of that to those preemptive efforts.

[hayesbd]

I will offer this piece of encouragement...

I have "grown up" with Fiats. My father owned a 1968 coupe that was destroyed by a teen-aged distracted driver and the replacement for that was a rather prosaic 1973 124 sedan. He paid close attention to the recommended maintenance and, with the aid of a know-it-all friend bent the valves on the 1968 during a routine belt change. Other than that, I do not recall any issues that sidelined the cars. When the coupe was destroyed in an accident, the replacement for the it lasted well over 150,000 miles with nothing but routine maintenance and (I am pretty sure) no issues that required a tow.

The point I am after is that if these cars are serviced regularly and properly, they actually can be pretty reliable, even by today's standards. I have owned my Dad's 1973 sedan, a 1974 TC sedan (with the twin-cam engine), a 1970 850 Racer, a 1961 600D, and my current 1973 Spider and I still say that if these cars are serviced properly (which, yes, means a lot more attention than modern cars and even older American cars require), they can be reasonably reliable. I have taken my Spider on business trips with no qualms and will do in the future when if fix what the PO has messed up on the head.

Brian

[klweimer]

I think everyone with one of these Italian classics has felt the same way at some point. I have a giant pile of receipts from working on my '82, and have't tried to add them all up. I'm guessing somewhere north of $12K. I want to make my spider a reliable driver under all conditions, but don't feel that way right now (hot restart issue). Typically, when I fix a system, I just replace everything I think could be considered a wear item, upgrading with newer technology where I can. Not cheap. I tell my wife it's cheaper than therapy...

[JohnMc]

I bought a 1969 in 1972 when I was 18 - what a cool car and was faster than the 914's. Have had two others.
My 23 year old son and I have been working on my current one, a 1970. It is a good project but really I picked a bad project car - my fault. He has been of immeasurable help and I stopped counting at about $8k of parts - and now the clutch that I installed has issue so have to pull the tranny.
The electricals especially are a whack-a-mole on something this old.
These are old, great looking, fun to drive, gets attention when it is actually out but I do not feel will ever be at all reliable.
But I have told my son that if I die he is to sell or have the Fiat towed away and never get one in the future.
Kind of a disease - but as previously mentioned better than therapy but not certain it is cheaper.
God help me for having this disease.

[nelsonj]

Great comments all - keep'um coming.

Concerning my slipped timing belt. I had the car stored about 20 years, and I had a great mechanic (Santo) help me get it back on the road. We replaced the rubber break lines, the donut, and we changed the timing belt and water pump. He called me and told me the cam gears looked warn and recommended, but didn't insist I change them. I told him (because I felt I had spent enough and I figured gears don't really wear out) that I would change them next time I did the T belt...

We'll, they were plastic gears and after my T belt slipped I diagnosed the problem. 1) The plastic gears were worn and had "saddles" on all the teeth, so I'd say only about 50% of the belt made contact. 2) I needed cam seals and oil had gotten over the cam gears and not only made them slick, but grime got all in between the teeth making it harder for the belt to sit correctly in the gears.

Bottom line: Inspect your cam gears. Don't let them get grimy with oil, and if the teeth are not sharp, level rectangles, change the gears and the seals while your at it!

So, my slipped timing belt WAS a maintenance issue. I could have save $1000 just by listening to my mechanic. I hope other learn from my mistake - I'm now obsessive about the gears being very clean, and keeping the belt fresh.

Peace.
Out.

[DieselSpider]

Nelson - Oil on a timing belt is a disaster in progress and will cause the belt to fail. As you found out not taking care of that right away will lead to an expensive failure. The important thing is that you learned from it and were candid enough to share.

Keep making progress, your on the right track.

[nelsonj]

Hi all, Happy Thanksgiving!

More to add on my continuing saga of "mean time between failures" of issues that keep Bella off the road. Last weekend I went to run errands with my son, and as I pulled Bella out the garage, I notice fluid dripping from the car. I pull back to the garage, popped the hood, and fuel was gushing from around the fuel pump (mechanical). I figured the pump was the problem (but a bit surprised because I replaced it about 6 years ago), order a new one from Vicks (they should clearly label the flow, I did something to break the pump trying to manually figure it out, had to take it apart, fix it...) , and bought some fuel line and a clear plastic fuel filter from the local Autozone. (I like the clear fuel filters because I can tell if the pump is delivering fuel, and I can tell the condition of the filter.) Anyway, the job went smoothly (this being my second time) and the car is running great and on the road. Again, not an expensive or time consuming repair, but without the fix the car was undrivable, thus qualifying for the post.

It was about 2,600 miles since my last qualifying event, so this brings my mean average time between failures to 2,028 miles. That is, on average, every 2028 miles something breaks that keeps me off the road. But usually not for long.


Miles Issue Cost Repair
43800 Fuel pump leaking $50. Replace fuel pump, connecting fuel lines and fuel filter
41200 Fuel filler hose $45 Replace hose
40800 Voltage Regulator $30 Replace voltage regulator
39000 Cracked downpipe $300 Buy new down pipe, new custom exhaust
35000 Leaking master cylinder $125 Replace M/C, bleed breaks
30000 Leaking break cylinder $25 Rebuild leaking breaks
29600 T Belt Slip $1,200 Rebuild head, new head gasket, timing belt

Mean time between failure: 2,028 miles

Peace.
Out.

[DieselSpider]

6 years is about right for a rubber diaphragm fuel pump to fail when there is Ethanol in the equation unless its a new stock pump designed to handle Ethanol. Lack of use would have made it worse since old separating Ethanol was captive in the pump eating away at the diaphragm and metal housing on the pump. Most folks using the car as a daily driver would have gotten 60,000 to 72,000 miles from the pump in 6 years.

Check the engine oil and change it if there is any hint of a gasoline smell to it since most times, when a diaphragm fuel pump run off a cam fails, gasoline ends up inside the crankcase diluting/contaminating the engine oil. Failure to follow this best practice will usually result in more inflated MTBF numbers.

[Spider951]

Thanks for keeping us updated. I can't really answer your original question, but I do have a few observations. Way back in 1978 I bought a low-mileage '76 Spider, owned it for about 5 years, during which time it was very reliable; only thing I remember having some issue with was learning to change the timing belt. Fast forward to a couple of years ago - I bought an '81 Spider with about 72,000 miles; reliability... well, not terrible, but not so good either. Difference between the '76 and '81? Well, obviously age, but primarily that PO of the '81 mostly sketchy on maintaining the car. So you're just doing what has to be done with a car that old IMHO.

BTW, I've owned American, Japanese, German, British, and Italian cars. The most reliable - probably a 1990 GMC S-15 pickup, if you didn't mind weird electrical issues (nearly always false warnings). The least reliable award goes to 1994 Chevy Cavalier (6 cyl) - the thing would leak some type of fluid (sometimes multiple types simultaneously) at intervals way less than your 2,000 mile interval. A fire extinguisher was mandatory equipment. I threatened to drive the thing into the ocean on more than one occasion... but why be a threat to marine life. Most expensive to own - German.