78 California spider: dual points ignition failure. Engine will not start under warm/hot engine conditions

[lvacordian]

I'm rebooting a previous thread that I created concerning this issue from a few years back. Needless to say the issue was never really resolved and now I am due for my emissions inspection. I have a 1978 California 124 spider who's dual points ignition system is not functioning properly. The problem is that the car will start fine when it's cold (it starts on the advanced starting points like it should) but it doesn't start when the engine is warm because it's trying to start of the running points instead of the starting points. The running points are retarded 0 degrees.

I originally thought that this was a fuel percolation and heat soak issue because the fuel was boiling inside the float bowl, and the car would not start again until after sitting for 45 minutes. I resolved the percolation issue by placing a Phenolic spacer sandwiched between two cardboard spacers, in between the carburetor and the manifold, the hot start problem persisted. According to the factory workshop manual I should be receiving 10° of advanced starting upon both cold and warm start up.

I know that my ignition mode relay is functioning properly and I can tell that because when the temperatures is below 60° the relay energizes and the engine starts with the advanced starting points. However after a few minutes of running the engine automatically shuts off all by itself. When I go to restart the engine it will not start. Again I thought it was a percolation issue involving heat soak as I described above but I resolved that issue and know for a fact that it's resolved. My engine still will not fire when it's warm.

Now when I take the ignition mode relay out and run a jumper cable on the ignition mode relay socket from the brown power cable contact to the green and black cable contact, the engine starts up fine on the advanced starting points even though the engine is warm/hot. So I know there's an issue. According to the official FIAT North American factory workshop manual, under warm engine conditions the oil pressure switch is supposed activate the starting points, and then deactivate the starting points; via the ignition mode really once sufficient oil pressure is reached. I included a copy of that page as an attachment. At this point I know for a fact this isn't happening. I know the oil pressure switch works because I tested it and The ignition mode relay switch also works. The temperature switch beneath the manifold works fine so I totally stumped. Any ideas will be appreciated.

[TimpanogosSlim]

deduction would suggest that there may be a wiring fault between the oil pressure switch and the relay.

OTOH, pretty sure pertronix ignitor systems are CARB certified.

[lvacordian]

I've got that pertronix kit but the problem is that it will only run the ignition timing at 10 degrees advanced. CARB regulation for he 78 spider is 0 degrees ignition timing.

[TimpanogosSlim]

Brad's wire diagram for the 78 spider doesn't show a connection between the low oil pressure sensor and anything but the indicator light.

Also has the text switched for the low oil indicator and the low fuel indicator.

http://fiat.artigue.com/wp-content/uplo ... ider_C.pdf

I don't see the page from the service manual you referenced - probably because we don't have attachments on this forum. certainly I don't. Do you have an external link? I could check my '77 manual and see what it has to say.

[lvacordian]

It's page 55-14 in the workshop manual. I was unable to post attachment.

[nelsonj]

As a fellow Ventura County Fiat owner, I wish you the very best luck with your smog issue. I have a cat from a previous 78 that only has about 2,500 miles on it if you decide you need a new cat... My solution to smog was to get a 72 which is exempt from smog (75 and older is exempt).

As for dual points - why??? Go with an electronic ignition and never look back.

Smog will simply make sure the timing is correct, you have a cat, the smog pump turns and everything looks hooked up. You should be fine with an electronic ignition (its an upgrade from points). And of course you have to pass the numbers. A good mechanic can adjust the carb to help get the numbers in line.

Let us know how this smog turns out - and I can point you to a very good mechanic in the SFV that worked wonders on my 78 when I had to smog it (if needed).

Peace. Out.

[TimpanogosSlim]

It's page 55-14 in the workshop manual. I was unable to post attachment.

I've heard that there are unfortunately 3 or 4 different books masquerading as the official workshop manual. But I'll take a look in mine.

[lvacordian]

I have the one published by FIAT North America.

[lvacordian]

My experience with the Pertronix kit is that it will only work at 10 degrees advanced ignition timing. My 78 calls for 0 degrees ignition timing....otherwise I would totally do the pertronix kit. It just wont pass emissions at 10 degrees timing

[blazingspider]

I have a 77 that had the dual point setup. My understanding of the cold start system is that the engine will use the cold start set when there is no oil pressure AND when the temp is below 60 degrees.

I've never heard of the cold start set being energized only with a no oil pressure indication, so it seems to me that the relay and the system is working properly as you state once the temp rises above 60 degrees, the system switches over to the running set of points and that's when the motor dies.

When you pull the relay and use a jumper wire to energize the cold start set of points, the engine runs regardless of oil pressure and temp because you have eliminated the no oil and low temp signals the relay would normally use.

I would look at your running points setup in order to determine why the car doesn't run when using that set of points and condenser.

My 2 cents.

[lvacordian]

Excellent advice! Thank you! I will look into into it.

[lvacordian]

So I've slapped on a pertronix ignitor kit and the problem is solved. I've gotten rid of the points, and I'm bypassing relays and switches and everything works totally fine. So much easier, especially since so many of these fiat emissions switches are no longer available.