Hydrasport shocks + old springs?

[KevAndAndi]

My wife has a saying from back when we were active skiers: "Don't put old bindings on new skis." It's often a false economy to do things halfway. Sometimes, this is because the old and new don't work well together.

So, I'm considering buying the Hydrasport shocks that Vick offers:

http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index. ... ts_id=4212

The product description includes the following:

"In addition, the fact that these shocks are NOT highly-charged gas shocks (like KYB, Monroe, etc) means that your effective spring rate is lowered back down closer to expectations (stock + 15%, if using VAS Sport springs), which also helps control ride height."

My ride height is not particularly high with the current stock springs, KYBs in the front, and what appear to be OEM shocks in the rear. We haven't made any changes since we purchased the car, and we still have the KYBs that the PO bought for the rear but never got around to installing.

Should I assume that with the stock springs and Hydrasport shocks the front would ride a little lower and the rear would be about the same height?

If I get the hydraulic shocks, is there any compelling reason to replace the springs, other than that new springs would be new and brightly painted?

The objective is to achieve a soft ride. To use the skiing analogy, the car is a cruiser and not for slalom. In order to improve the current ox-cart-quality ride, I'm also installing new front anti-roll bar bushings, trailing arms, panhard rod, and lower control arms. The existing bushings are rock hard.

[klweimer]

I replaced the original shocks on my 82 with simple Monroe shocks from AR. They seem to work OK, but the ride is still pretty hard with stock springs. Most of the replacements our vendors sell are progressive rate, so (theoretically) they start softer and then get stiffer with higher compression. No clue if this actually works out. Like you, I'm looking for more of cruiser ride. At some point when I replace springs to lower ride height, I'll replace all the rubber spring seats as well. The originals are rock hard.
Kirk

[Dawgme85]

I recently replaced the front control arms, shocks, and springs on my Spider with new control arms, Konis and progressive lowering springs from Auto Ricambi. The bushings and ball joints were ready for replacement and the shocks were a combination of OEM in the front and KYB in the rear. I chose progressive springs because I wanted to lower the car without it becoming stiffer during normal driving. The Konis are also hydraulic shocks, but with external adjustment, which I set to the softest setting.
The result is that the car RIDES about the same as before, but with much better control, especially on twisty roads, where it now corners much faster and flatter, and is easier to maintain a chosen line without rolling from side to side, which was my goal. Another goal was that my wife wouldn't complain about the ride, which has also been met.
If I were looking to maintain a nice stock ride, mainly for cruising, I would stick with the stock springs and a good set of OEM-quality shocks, like Monroes. Don't forget that these are sports cars, not Cadillacs. If you're looking to IMPROVE the ride, I'd suggest that you speak with somebody at Vick's to confirm that those shocks are appropriate to do so. Depending on the valving, it could be that Konis, set to the softest setting, are a better alternative, even though they're more expensive.
Good luck.
LeRoy

[KevAndAndi]

I replaced the original shocks on my 82 with simple Monroe shocks from AR. They seem to work OK, but the ride is still pretty hard with stock springs. Most of the replacements our vendors sell are progressive rate, so (theoretically) they start softer and then get stiffer with higher compression. No clue if this actually works out. Like you, I'm looking for more of cruiser ride. At some point when I replace springs to lower ride height, I'll replace all the rubber spring seats as well. The originals are rock hard.
Kirk

Thanks, I had completely forgotten about the spring seats. I guess those don't automatically come with new springs.

I surmise that the softest possible ride would come from progressive springs + hydraulic shocks (obviously set at the softest setting, if adjustable).

[KevAndAndi]

I recently replaced the front control arms, shocks, and springs on my Spider with new control arms, Konis and progressive lowering springs from Auto Ricambi. The bushings and ball joints were ready for replacement and the shocks were a combination of OEM in the front and KYB in the rear. I chose progressive springs because I wanted to lower the car without it becoming stiffer during normal driving. The Konis are also hydraulic shocks, but with external adjustment, which I set to the softest setting.
The result is that the car RIDES about the same as before

Wait, after all that "softening", it rides about the same - in terms of stiffness?

but with much better control, especially on twisty roads, where it now corners much faster and flatter, and is easier to maintain a chosen line without rolling from side to side, which was my goal. Another goal was that my wife wouldn't complain about the ride, which has also been met.

What was her complaint? Was it the rolling? I assume so, if the ride is not appreciably softer.

If I were looking to maintain a nice stock ride, mainly for cruising, I would stick with the stock springs and a good set of OEM-quality shocks, like Monroes. Don't forget that these are sports cars, not Cadillacs. If you're looking to IMPROVE the ride, I'd suggest that you speak with somebody at Vick's to confirm that those shocks are appropriate to do so. Depending on the valving, it could be that Konis, set to the softest setting, are a better alternative, even though they're more expensive.
Good luck.
LeRoy

I'm trying to avoid the high-dollar outlay that Konis would entail. I suppose another option would be to install the KYBs in the rear and change the springs to progressive. Or, simply install the KYBs in the rear, leave the stock springs for now, and see how the ride improves with new bushings. It's just that since I'll be installing new control arms, it seems like now's the time to change shocks and/or springs in the front, if I'm going to do that.

Vick says: "Our cars using these shocks have shown a big improvement in BOTH ride smoothness and responsiveness. The difference is honestly shocking."

"Shocking" seems a bit over-the-top, but they clearly do claim an improvement in smoothness.

[njoconnor]

Having wrestled with the cost question like Kevin, and implementing the same solution as Dawgme, a couple of thoughts on the matter.

No doubt, the Koni's cost. What helped me decide to go that route were the numbers of posts (old and new) from folks who'd already gone the OEM-Monroe/KYB-Koni route, and their expressed satisfaction with the Koni's. A search on Hydrasport in the forum shows this thread (and one other), but seems like there's not enough posted experience with them to help with decisions. Bad puns in the ad copy aside, they appear to be a reasonable cost solution. For our 72, the Koni's on full soft returned the tight, crisp cornering while significantly reducing the felt road impacts and improving the ride comfort. But the Koni's were only part of the solution.

Replacing the old bushings at all the suspension points is critical; they are the first defense against the road impacts. Whether one elects to replace all the control arms/rods (with pre-installed bushings), or mess around with sockets and vises to press new bushings into old metal (hey, it was fun! Sorta.). I believe that's job 1. Replacing my springs was a no-brainer: our right front was "assisted" by three steel spring blocks, suggesting a bad RF spring. Progressives don't seem to lower small bumper cars very much (and lowering was not one of my objectives). The progressive springs (regardless of source) seemed to help balance the "nice ride" with "cut and run" cornering.

Proof came when I took Pat and the 72 over some notorious washboard near our old house. As it came up, she was cringing. As we went over, she looked at me and just said "Worth it!!". Our rides are longer, and we feel less beat up by the road bumps and jarring.

Good luck, Kevin, take it slow, and then enjoy the ride!

Neil

[Dawgme85]

"Wait, after all that "softening", it rides about the same - in terms of stiffness?" - That is correct; it doesn't pound or jar over small bumps or road imperfections any more than before. It may be a little better, but to be honest, I was just happy it wasn't any rougher than before. I've never felt it was a "bad" riding car, though.

but with much better control, especially on twisty roads, where it now corners much faster and flatter, and is easier to maintain a chosen line without rolling from side to side, which was my goal. Another goal was that my wife wouldn't complain about the ride, which has also been met.

"What was her complaint? Was it the rolling? I assume so, if the ride is not appreciably softer." - She had no complaints before; I was just hoping the upgrade wouldn't create such a rough ride that she would complain about it. So far, no complaints after a few day drives.

Just to be clear, the only reason I replaced the springs was because I wanted a lower stance. Since the ball joints needed to be replaced, and the bushings were worn and cracked, I decided that this was a good opportunity to lower the car, and figured new shocks made sense, as well. Ride wasn't an issue before the upgrade, but I chose progressive springs because my Spider is a road car, not a track car. I just didn't want to lower the car at the expense of a rougher ride, if possible, which I felt would have been the case with non-progressive "performance" springs. The Konis I chose as simply the best option available. I fully expected the ride and handling to be affected by the upgrade and was pleasantly surprised to find that it rides about the same, but with much improved handling.
On a side note, the rubber spring seats were not replaced, nor did they appear to be in need of replacement, but, once again, it was not my goal to "improve" the ride.

[Nanonevol]

KevandAndi please let us know how you like the Hydrasports should you decide to go with them. I'm simply not going to invest in Koni's and these might be a good lower cost alternative. Maybe even "shockingly" good. Apparently they are also adjustable.

[KevAndAndi]

I was quite surprised to receive a call out of nowhere by Matt at Vick Autosports. He said that they monitor forums from time to time, and he said he understood I had a few questions.

The main takeaways from the conversation were:

1. The Hydrasports are slightly softer than the Konis are at their softest setting.

2. I should measure my ride height. The ride height specs are supposedly somewhere in the shop manual. It's possible that the OEM springs are sagging such that "lowering springs" would not actually lower the car. This is interesting to know because I was concerned that lowering springs might lower the car too much.

Tomorrow, I'm going to be changing the oil in the differential and tackling some of the rear suspension upgrades with parts I already have.

[Frog2Spider]

I also struggled with the cost of the Koni Shocks. Outrageous!

I went with them anyway, and all I can say is, WOW !!

Nice ride and outstanding handling! I still think their price is outrageous, but now I'm convinced that they are worth it.

If you build a better mouse trap, you can charge more for it. I just ordered another set for my G35.

Dave.

[Dawgme85]

Here are pics of mine, before and after installing the progressive lowering springs and Konis. The height difference was about 1-1/2", and is noticeable when entering/exiting the car.
http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic ... 14&t=33799
I hadn't thought about it before, but the slight rake in the "before" picture could be due to the mix of OEM and KYB shocks?
LeRoy

[KevAndAndi]

Here are pics of mine, before and after installing the progressive lowering springs and Konis. The height difference was about 1-1/2", and is noticeable when entering/exiting the car.
http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic ... 14&t=33799
I hadn't thought about it before, but the slight rake in the "before" picture could be due to the mix of OEM and KYB shocks?
LeRoy

Thanks. Do you happen to have the ground-to-top-of-wheel-arch measurements? Before and after, or just after?

[wizard124]

Install the rear KYBs. Comfortable ride and not harsh at all.