I was doing some diagnostic work on my Spider this weekend due to the need to move it in another month (and my preference to just drive it to the new garage), and I am a bit stumped as to from what angle to approach its driveability issue.
Car sometimes has difficulty starting cold (crank, no start) but that is fine now, and seems to have suddenly gotten better or maybe gone away after I checked the connection of the cold start valve.
Other issue still occurs. Start car (cold), car starts and idles normally (well, it does have many maintenance needs and a distributor shaft seal is getting a bit of oil on the exhaust manifold, but that is another issue). Drive car, OK to begin with but after not too long when you come to a stop and the engine comes down to idle, idle speed will start dropping (this is what I characterize as a stumble) and at first you can keep it up with throttle but after a few instances of this it dies. Then it will crank, but not start. If I am lucky if I wait a minute or two it will eventually catch when I crank it, but I still have to work to keep engine speed up at idle. The next time, however, it will not start until it has been sitting for a while.
I do have all the diagnostic manuals I need (EFI manual, etc.) but I am a bit unsure as to how to frame the problem well for diagnostics. It's not really a no-hot-restart issue - it's more of a driveability issue. But not exactly.
I know these are not hard cars to work on, and I've tackled harder, but I'd appreciate a bit of help if any of you can offer it. Perhaps it is because I am more focused on the rod bearing job and other work that I'm rushing to get done on another car
thanks,
David
Chicago
idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
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- Your car is a: 1981 Turbo Spider
- dbr
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- Your car is a: 1981 fiat spider
- Location: St. Charles, IL area
Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Hello from Chicago as well!
I am by no means an expert but I did have the same if not extremely similar problem with my 1981 spider last summer. It started after maybe one or two tries, ran well for maybe 10 minutes and then would die at every stop sign/light. I would then have to wait a couple of minutes before being able to drive to the next stop sign! This is actually how I covered 1/2 a mile in 3 hours last summer! The problem turned out to be that my battery was super low and wasn't getting recharged well enough with my alternator. At first, I didn't think this could be the problem as both the battery and alternator were brand new, but I found out that the alternator belt was slightly loose and that my battery ground cable was loose as well, together they caused my problem.
I would suggest checking the battery voltage both before and while running ( a second hand might be required). Please anyone correct me here if I'm wrong.
I am by no means an expert but I did have the same if not extremely similar problem with my 1981 spider last summer. It started after maybe one or two tries, ran well for maybe 10 minutes and then would die at every stop sign/light. I would then have to wait a couple of minutes before being able to drive to the next stop sign! This is actually how I covered 1/2 a mile in 3 hours last summer! The problem turned out to be that my battery was super low and wasn't getting recharged well enough with my alternator. At first, I didn't think this could be the problem as both the battery and alternator were brand new, but I found out that the alternator belt was slightly loose and that my battery ground cable was loose as well, together they caused my problem.
I would suggest checking the battery voltage both before and while running ( a second hand might be required). Please anyone correct me here if I'm wrong.
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Thanks for this - it's a possibility I hadn't considered. I doubt the battery itself is bad - it's relatively new, and I have it hooked up to a tender. The alternator is original, but I've never had any other symptoms of a dying alternator. But a loose belt - it's certainly possible. I'll check that the next chance I get.
- RRoller123
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Could be the cold start injector is still spraying when warm, or the AAV is stuck open. Temp sensor could be bad, etc. best to go through that FI Manual step by step.
'80 FI Spider 2000
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
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2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
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2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
I am also from Chicago area!
I have 81 Fi . I would have chaotic starts . For instance, sometimes it would start when cold; but then to restart an hour later , it would require many seconds of cranking....and sometimes pushing on gas pedal (should not have to in FI). Basically problems related to air leaks. The aav hose had a crack ; but the main culprit was bad brake booster that would not hold vacuum over 15 cm pressure (caused variable idling); and would gradually lose vacuum car sat overnight. Check your booster with a vacuum gauge pump (mityvac). It might take over 100 -200 pumps, but it should hold up to 20 cm h20 pressure. Mine would pop off anywhere from 5-15.
One you have found the air leaks, you need to go through procedure for adjusting throttle position sensor; throttle plate screw and lock nut; and then idle screw
I have 81 Fi . I would have chaotic starts . For instance, sometimes it would start when cold; but then to restart an hour later , it would require many seconds of cranking....and sometimes pushing on gas pedal (should not have to in FI). Basically problems related to air leaks. The aav hose had a crack ; but the main culprit was bad brake booster that would not hold vacuum over 15 cm pressure (caused variable idling); and would gradually lose vacuum car sat overnight. Check your booster with a vacuum gauge pump (mityvac). It might take over 100 -200 pumps, but it should hold up to 20 cm h20 pressure. Mine would pop off anywhere from 5-15.
One you have found the air leaks, you need to go through procedure for adjusting throttle position sensor; throttle plate screw and lock nut; and then idle screw
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
I just noticed you have an 81 Turbo. No experience with turbo; maybe that is the source of problems
- KevAndAndi
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
I had similar problems due to a bad AFM. But you really should go through the troubleshooting steps one by one.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
- RRoller123
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Here are a few Fuel Injection Manual sources and references from one of my earlier posts, plus, Brad Artigue's new book has a good section on this topic:
For those interested in studying the Bosch L-Jetronic system, there is an amazing amount of quality material available on the web.
This link from the BMW folks has a very good PowerPoint type presentation on the components, etc.
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/ljet/jetronic.pdf
This one, from the VW folks, has a good component description too, but also a good trouble shooting manual:
https://www.type4.org/manuals/ljet/
##### But here is Bosch's own manual, a long, detailed slog through the swamp for sure. Probably best printed out for studying:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/BOSCH ... Manual.pdf
For those interested in studying the Bosch L-Jetronic system, there is an amazing amount of quality material available on the web.
This link from the BMW folks has a very good PowerPoint type presentation on the components, etc.
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/ljet/jetronic.pdf
This one, from the VW folks, has a good component description too, but also a good trouble shooting manual:
https://www.type4.org/manuals/ljet/
##### But here is Bosch's own manual, a long, detailed slog through the swamp for sure. Probably best printed out for studying:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/BOSCH ... Manual.pdf
'80 FI Spider 2000
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Thanks for posting. I like that BMW PowerPoint. The "Bosch's own manual link", though, doesn't work. Can you correct it? (I already have that manual, but others may want to make the long slog.)RRoller123 wrote:Here are a few Fuel Injection Manual sources and references from one of my earlier posts, plus, Brad Artigue's new book has a good section on this topic:
For those interested in studying the Bosch L-Jetronic system, there is an amazing amount of quality material available on the web.
This link from the BMW folks has a very good PowerPoint type presentation on the components, etc.
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/ljet/jetronic.pdf
This one, from the VW folks, has a good component description too, but also a good trouble shooting manual:
https://www.type4.org/manuals/ljet/
##### But here is Bosch's own manual, a long, detailed slog through the swamp for sure. Probably best printed out for studying:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/BOSCH ... Manual.pdf
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
- RRoller123
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Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Hmmmm.... I bet that it was taken down via copyright violation rules. I will do a quick search and see if it is still available elsewhere. It is far and away the best one of the entire lot. Gives many design details and reveals the engineering thinking, decisions and some of the calcs that were made in designing the components. Too much for most of us, but it was easy to skip through and get the needed bits.
'80 FI Spider 2000
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
- RRoller123
- Patron 2020
- Posts: 8179
- Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:04 pm
- Your car is a: 1980 FI SPIDER 2000
- Location: SAGAMORE BEACH, MA USA
Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
I just googled "Bosch L-jetronic manual" and it came right up as the first line item. It would cost a bundle to print it out in color, but I think I might do so. That being said, they have no reason to restrict info on this old system, it is actually highly to their advantage to have enthusiasts/people maintaining them and happy with them and keeping them functioning well, so maybe it will stay around on the net.
'80 FI Spider 2000
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
'74 and '79 X1/9 (past)
'75 BMW R75/6
2011 Chevy Malibu (daily driver)
2010 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Ext Cab 4WD/STD BED
2002 Edgewater 175CC 80HP 4-Stroke Yamaha
2003 Jaguar XK8
2003 Jaguar XKR
2021 Jayco 22RB
2019 Bianchi Torino Bicycle
- KevAndAndi
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:14 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Fiat Spider 2000
- Location: Chatham, NJ
Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
I have it nicely printed in color in the big binder I maintain for such documents. There's also a nice color printer at work. I'm not saying those two things are connected...RRoller123 wrote:I just googled "Bosch L-jetronic manual" and it came right up as the first line item. It would cost a bundle to print it out in color, but I think I might do so. That being said, they have no reason to restrict info on this old system, it is actually highly to their advantage to have enthusiasts/people maintaining them and happy with them and keeping them functioning well, so maybe it will stay around on the net.
Kevin
1981 Spider 2000
1981 Spider 2000
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- Posts: 45
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:01 pm
- Your car is a: 1981 Turbo Spider
Re: idle stumble/dying then difficulty with hot restarting
Replaced the ignition control module and this seems (fingers crossed!) to have solved the problem. I've had all the other parts for an ignition tune-up sitting in a box for ages and decided to finally just do it, and replace the module too (praise here for common parts with a ton of vehicle cross-references that I can get at my FLAPS). Fired immediately, took it for a cautious drive around the neighborhood and got it good and warmed up, behaved perfectly. If I move it to a new garage without issue, I know I'm golden!