Suspension help required. Egads!
- phaetn
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- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Suspension help required. Egads!
I need help from some experts!
I had my front end rebuilt by CanadaDan with all new parts and he also installed a new brake master cylinder because the old one was leaking badly; as part of this latter job he also serviced all the calipers. After the rebuild I had an expensive alignment done that required a bunch of shims yet the car still pulls badly to the right. I spent a lot of time under the car with the mechanic after the alignment was done and trouble-shooted.
First, the details:
Last year I bought new upper and lower control arms, tie rod ends, and a centre steering link from Auto Ricambi. I knew a ball joint was going on the old setup, so I figured this would replace everything and be fresh and new. I waited to install them until I was ready for a suspension upgrade, too, which occurred a couple of weeks ago when I I bought A/R's progressive rate springs.
My car is a '74 so it is the last year of the small bumpers, but it had a badly sagging rear end. When I went to FFO this summer and saw other cars of the same vintage I knew I had to do something! The clearance at the front also seemed much too high; I knew this was at least in part from the tired rear. I figured new coils all around should do the trick so that almost everything is fresh.
The new springs appeared to be around the same height as the originals at the rear when uncompressed, but very much raised the rear as the old ones were shot. Surprisingly, the new A/R front springs were considerably shorter that the originals -- probably at least a coil less tall, but I'm going from memory, it might well have been more. The front dropped probably 1.5 to two inches after the install. Initial new measurements were about 24" from ground to wheel well at centre, with the rear driver's side being a bit higher at 24.5". This compressed down to about 24" with driver weight. The camber at the front looked way off (positive) but this isn't likely a surprise given the car is sitting totally differently and much lower at the front.
After the alignment (including many shims to alter camber) the front has dropped a bit more -- to about 23.5" on each side. I would expect that this is from the suspension settling after a week rather than the camber change. Here are some before and after shots, as well as the specs from the alignment (click to expand):
With the old suspension and control arms the car steered straight and I could take my hands off the wheel. I put 5000 miles on it this past year -- including driving it to Pittsburgh and back -- all with no problem except the sagging rear. No issues with tire wear.
After the new bits the car pulls very much to the right. I would expect that with the new stance that the steering geometry has all changed so I wasn't initially worried. It's still happening after the alignment and now I'm concerned. I'm fighting the car from veering into the ditch at all times and this will wreck tires in short order.
The alignment tech (an experienced mech who has worked on old Porsches) doesn't think it's the alignment unless the computer's data set is wrong (though it does show for a 73-77 Fiat Spider). He had to put three shims on the lower control arms on each side to alter the camber upwards of three degrees. No more shims can be installed as otherwise the nuts won't be fully threaded on the bolts. The toe is apparently right on. He did indicate that camber would come in a bit with weight on the car, and I know he was lifting and dropping the car two or three times to take readings.
After I came back to complain about the veering to the right he put it up on the hoist again and I went under the car with him. The right side tie rod seems much stiffer than the left when we moved it back and forth with a plumber's wrench. That had him asking about the new joints. He was wondering if a ball was sitting too high in a socket or too tightly packed. Then we took off the wheels and checked for brake drag (which we didn't suspect as we had taken temp readings with a laser thermometer). Neither wheel was particularly free-rotating, but then they never have been. He loosened up the retainer nuts for the bearings (I've never seen the wheels run so free!) though the right was a bit notchy and not as free running when spun by hand. With weight on the car it might be worse. Still it was likely like that before when I put all the miles on it. I asked if the frame could be bent, but he said this wasn't the case according to the alignment readings.
I'm stuck as to what to do. The car shouldn't be driven for any distance before this is resolved. What else could be wrong? Should I just mess with the toe and get it to track straight? Should I be using old school methods with a measuring tape?
I was hoping to be really pleased with the new steering links, control arms, and suspension but right now it's much worse off. Should I go back to the old front suspension?
Any advice/help appreciated!!
Cheers,
phaetn
I had my front end rebuilt by CanadaDan with all new parts and he also installed a new brake master cylinder because the old one was leaking badly; as part of this latter job he also serviced all the calipers. After the rebuild I had an expensive alignment done that required a bunch of shims yet the car still pulls badly to the right. I spent a lot of time under the car with the mechanic after the alignment was done and trouble-shooted.
First, the details:
Last year I bought new upper and lower control arms, tie rod ends, and a centre steering link from Auto Ricambi. I knew a ball joint was going on the old setup, so I figured this would replace everything and be fresh and new. I waited to install them until I was ready for a suspension upgrade, too, which occurred a couple of weeks ago when I I bought A/R's progressive rate springs.
My car is a '74 so it is the last year of the small bumpers, but it had a badly sagging rear end. When I went to FFO this summer and saw other cars of the same vintage I knew I had to do something! The clearance at the front also seemed much too high; I knew this was at least in part from the tired rear. I figured new coils all around should do the trick so that almost everything is fresh.
The new springs appeared to be around the same height as the originals at the rear when uncompressed, but very much raised the rear as the old ones were shot. Surprisingly, the new A/R front springs were considerably shorter that the originals -- probably at least a coil less tall, but I'm going from memory, it might well have been more. The front dropped probably 1.5 to two inches after the install. Initial new measurements were about 24" from ground to wheel well at centre, with the rear driver's side being a bit higher at 24.5". This compressed down to about 24" with driver weight. The camber at the front looked way off (positive) but this isn't likely a surprise given the car is sitting totally differently and much lower at the front.
After the alignment (including many shims to alter camber) the front has dropped a bit more -- to about 23.5" on each side. I would expect that this is from the suspension settling after a week rather than the camber change. Here are some before and after shots, as well as the specs from the alignment (click to expand):
With the old suspension and control arms the car steered straight and I could take my hands off the wheel. I put 5000 miles on it this past year -- including driving it to Pittsburgh and back -- all with no problem except the sagging rear. No issues with tire wear.
After the new bits the car pulls very much to the right. I would expect that with the new stance that the steering geometry has all changed so I wasn't initially worried. It's still happening after the alignment and now I'm concerned. I'm fighting the car from veering into the ditch at all times and this will wreck tires in short order.
The alignment tech (an experienced mech who has worked on old Porsches) doesn't think it's the alignment unless the computer's data set is wrong (though it does show for a 73-77 Fiat Spider). He had to put three shims on the lower control arms on each side to alter the camber upwards of three degrees. No more shims can be installed as otherwise the nuts won't be fully threaded on the bolts. The toe is apparently right on. He did indicate that camber would come in a bit with weight on the car, and I know he was lifting and dropping the car two or three times to take readings.
After I came back to complain about the veering to the right he put it up on the hoist again and I went under the car with him. The right side tie rod seems much stiffer than the left when we moved it back and forth with a plumber's wrench. That had him asking about the new joints. He was wondering if a ball was sitting too high in a socket or too tightly packed. Then we took off the wheels and checked for brake drag (which we didn't suspect as we had taken temp readings with a laser thermometer). Neither wheel was particularly free-rotating, but then they never have been. He loosened up the retainer nuts for the bearings (I've never seen the wheels run so free!) though the right was a bit notchy and not as free running when spun by hand. With weight on the car it might be worse. Still it was likely like that before when I put all the miles on it. I asked if the frame could be bent, but he said this wasn't the case according to the alignment readings.
I'm stuck as to what to do. The car shouldn't be driven for any distance before this is resolved. What else could be wrong? Should I just mess with the toe and get it to track straight? Should I be using old school methods with a measuring tape?
I was hoping to be really pleased with the new steering links, control arms, and suspension but right now it's much worse off. Should I go back to the old front suspension?
Any advice/help appreciated!!
Cheers,
phaetn
Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
You don't mention anything about the car being laden with weight during it's alignment. Mine is a 1976 and calls for 2 passengers and approx 130 pounds of luggage or weight in the trunk. It's an important step and all the manuals call for it.
Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
your spec sheet doesn't show any caster readings. Caster will cause the car to pull if it's not correct. Are the same tires on the car as before the repairs? If they're new tires, swap them from side to side and see if the pull changes
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
for one, most allingment shops don't check axle distance for some reason.
put your car on the flat surface with wheels pointing straight forward and measure distance between wheels on both sides. just pick a spot on rim edge for example and do the same on other side. distance between wheels on either side should be within 1/8 inch aproximately. anything over that will cause strong pulling to the side which is shorter.
axle distance can be adjusted with shims under front lower A arms, with about 2/3 inch back/forward ajdustment before you run out of thread.
believe it or not, tyres can cause pulling to the side too, even if they're same size, thread, model, pressure.
swap over left and right front to see what happens
allingment should be done with car weighted down. two people in front seats usually do the trick
put your car on the flat surface with wheels pointing straight forward and measure distance between wheels on both sides. just pick a spot on rim edge for example and do the same on other side. distance between wheels on either side should be within 1/8 inch aproximately. anything over that will cause strong pulling to the side which is shorter.
axle distance can be adjusted with shims under front lower A arms, with about 2/3 inch back/forward ajdustment before you run out of thread.
believe it or not, tyres can cause pulling to the side too, even if they're same size, thread, model, pressure.
swap over left and right front to see what happens
allingment should be done with car weighted down. two people in front seats usually do the trick
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
And it will be WAY off if the top control arms are swapped. Completely undrivable.So Cal Mark wrote:your spec sheet doesn't show any caster readings. Caster will cause the car to pull if it's not correct.
1979 Fiat Spider (since new)
2005 Lincoln LS (the wife's car)
2003 Chevrolet Cavalier (daily driver)
1999 Honda Shadow VLX 600
1972 Grumman Traveller 5895L (long gone).
2005 Lincoln LS (the wife's car)
2003 Chevrolet Cavalier (daily driver)
1999 Honda Shadow VLX 600
1972 Grumman Traveller 5895L (long gone).
- phaetn
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- Your car is a: 1974 Fiat Spider 1800
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
Thanks for all the replies.
Mark, I'll ask at the shop if they can check the caster in the spring. You're right that it wasn't on the sheet. I guess he could remove one of the three shims on either the front or rear bolt, but he definitely can't add any as there was no more thread to the crossmember to control arms bolts. New, long bolts could get tack welded in, but that's a whole other job... The car has the same tires in the same location as was on before.
djape1977, I assume by "axle distance" you mean caster. There are only three possible adjustments: camber and castor (both with shims under the lower control arm pivot bolt) and toe (threading on tie rods). There's a glaring error in the Spider Shop Manual by Ricambi Originali © 1990. It claims on p.44-1 (where it gives the values for castor and camber) that adjustment is made by adding shims "between body and upper control arm." Clearly it must be lower, and the later instructions do properly indicate this.
Today was the last drive of the season so it will have to wait: Tonight it's freezing rain and then it's nearly six inches of snow later in the week. I've just put the car over tarps in the garage and put the car cover on. It won't see the light of day for at least three months, probably closer to four.
bobplyler: The car is driveable (I had it just shy of 100mph today), but it definitely pulls a lot. It's also much more twitchy: there's not as much weight anymore over the back, obviously, and going over bumps is much harsher as I'm sure I'm hitting the bump stops on the front.
The car is darn low now. I was going to jack up the car to flip the tires around but I couldn't even fit it under the crossmember with a thin piece of wood! I took a couple of measurements: 4" clearance to the oil pan bolt, and only 3.5" to the lowest point which is the two part downtube of the exhaust where it joins to become one. Looks like I'll have to be careful on curbs and avoid the Montreal exposed manhole covers!
Thanks again everyone! I'll get this sorted, but I don't want to have to spend any more. The alignment was already $270 taxes in!
Cheers,
phaetn
Mark, I'll ask at the shop if they can check the caster in the spring. You're right that it wasn't on the sheet. I guess he could remove one of the three shims on either the front or rear bolt, but he definitely can't add any as there was no more thread to the crossmember to control arms bolts. New, long bolts could get tack welded in, but that's a whole other job... The car has the same tires in the same location as was on before.
djape1977, I assume by "axle distance" you mean caster. There are only three possible adjustments: camber and castor (both with shims under the lower control arm pivot bolt) and toe (threading on tie rods). There's a glaring error in the Spider Shop Manual by Ricambi Originali © 1990. It claims on p.44-1 (where it gives the values for castor and camber) that adjustment is made by adding shims "between body and upper control arm." Clearly it must be lower, and the later instructions do properly indicate this.
Today was the last drive of the season so it will have to wait: Tonight it's freezing rain and then it's nearly six inches of snow later in the week. I've just put the car over tarps in the garage and put the car cover on. It won't see the light of day for at least three months, probably closer to four.
bobplyler: The car is driveable (I had it just shy of 100mph today), but it definitely pulls a lot. It's also much more twitchy: there's not as much weight anymore over the back, obviously, and going over bumps is much harsher as I'm sure I'm hitting the bump stops on the front.
The car is darn low now. I was going to jack up the car to flip the tires around but I couldn't even fit it under the crossmember with a thin piece of wood! I took a couple of measurements: 4" clearance to the oil pan bolt, and only 3.5" to the lowest point which is the two part downtube of the exhaust where it joins to become one. Looks like I'll have to be careful on curbs and avoid the Montreal exposed manhole covers!
Thanks again everyone! I'll get this sorted, but I don't want to have to spend any more. The alignment was already $270 taxes in!
Cheers,
phaetn
Last edited by phaetn on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
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Last edited by fiatfactory on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
nothing to see here... move along.
- phaetn
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
Indeed, the idler could well be worn. Apart from the steering box (which seems okay) it's probably the only other item to check.
Maybe it was bad before but it wasn't noticeable with wearing/worn ball joints. Now that everything is new it's rearing its head... Maybe I should just get a new one to make sure everything is taken care of in the equation...
Cheers and thanks,
phaetn
Maybe it was bad before but it wasn't noticeable with wearing/worn ball joints. Now that everything is new it's rearing its head... Maybe I should just get a new one to make sure everything is taken care of in the equation...
Cheers and thanks,
phaetn
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
there's camber, caster and there's a distance between front and rear wheels.
latest can be adjusted too
as i said, if on one side distance is smaller then on other, car will pull strongly to that side
how it's adjusted?
to begin with, check condition of rear suspension bushings. if any of those is worn, replace it.
check if lower rear control arms are straight. ben't rear longitudinal arm will cause that side of rear axle to move forwards.
now, move to front suspension
add for example 4mm of shims more on rear bolt of lower suspension arm then on front bolt. what will happen? you'll push whole wheel forwards.
only after this is done, you can start adjusting camber and caster
latest can be adjusted too
as i said, if on one side distance is smaller then on other, car will pull strongly to that side
how it's adjusted?
to begin with, check condition of rear suspension bushings. if any of those is worn, replace it.
check if lower rear control arms are straight. ben't rear longitudinal arm will cause that side of rear axle to move forwards.
now, move to front suspension
add for example 4mm of shims more on rear bolt of lower suspension arm then on front bolt. what will happen? you'll push whole wheel forwards.
only after this is done, you can start adjusting camber and caster
- phaetn
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
Ok, thanks. In English we usually call those arms on the rear suspension "trailing arms", though the Fiat manual calls them "reaction rods"; I did replace both of the shorter ones last year so they have new bushings. I haven't checked the longer ones. The thing is the car was good before, but that doesn't mean things were necessarily right. I did ask the tech if the frame could be bent, but he said the computer would have shown that and the lasers between the front and rear wheels should have shown if there was a discrepancy from one side to the other.
He did seem to know what he was doing and has worked on old cars at a very well known Porsche dealership in town where people come in asking for custom settings because they have race setups, aftermarket suspensions, and want to have their weight in the car as the readings are done. I'll go back in the next few days and I'll make sure they make it right in the spring without my having to shell out money again.
Thanks again for your help everyone.
Cheers,
phaetn
He did seem to know what he was doing and has worked on old cars at a very well known Porsche dealership in town where people come in asking for custom settings because they have race setups, aftermarket suspensions, and want to have their weight in the car as the readings are done. I'll go back in the next few days and I'll make sure they make it right in the spring without my having to shell out money again.
Thanks again for your help everyone.
Cheers,
phaetn
Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
confirming what Steve C posted, the lower arm should be parallel to the ground, if it's angled upward towards the ball joint the car is too low
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
just use the fr*** tape measure
- RRoller123
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
would not anything but parallel effect the camber tremendously?
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- v6spider
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
Lower trailing arm mounts that are bolted to the body can be loosened from the body and adjusted also if need be to correct distance between rear and front wheel.. It's not much but it should be done after caster is adjusted.. On my car I made adjustable trailing arms with Teflon lined chromoly heim joints. The upper arm joints are polyurethane to absorb pinion shock..
Cheers!
Rob
Cheers!
Rob
http://www.v6spider.com
4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
4.3L V6 Powered 1972 124 FIAT Spider
- phaetn
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Re: Suspension help required. Egads!
I took some measurements with my daughter today who held the tape at the front rim. It looks like the right side is almost 1/2" shorter distance than the left between the rims. I was planning to check again tomorrow with an adult, but decided to check just on my own at the front to rule out a trailing arm issue. There's the same almost 1/2" difference between the tire to the same position on the body on right and left sides. This definitely suggests it's the caster or something else amiss at the front end.
Given that the alignment tech used the the same amount of shims right and left and also fore and aft of the pivot bolt it looks like he didn't even know caster could be adjusted.
Thanks for all the replies and guidance!
Cheers,
phaetn
Given that the alignment tech used the the same amount of shims right and left and also fore and aft of the pivot bolt it looks like he didn't even know caster could be adjusted.
Thanks for all the replies and guidance!
Cheers,
phaetn