First Time Post - wondering if I need to rebuild

[tyhous]

Hello and let me say this is a great forum - really glad to be a part of it.

I recently turned 40 and finally bought myself a 76 Spider (w/ an 81 engine - it was a late night impulse buy on Ebay). It ran OK for a few hundred miles, but then it would die after the engine warmed up and wouldn't start again for about an hour after the engine cooled down. Now it won't start at all. My buddy who is a boat engine mechanic says that the engine needs to be rebuilt, mainly because of the blue smoke coming out of the exhaust and he said the exhaust smells like radiator fluid. Also the distributor cap is really lose - it can turn 3 inches in each direction. Based on this little information, do you think he's right?

I have a friend who has rebuilt an engine before and offered to help, and my neighbor has a cherry picker and engine stand I can use, and he also knows a professional who can bore out the cylinders if needed. One of the reasons I bought a Fiat is that I read they are easy to work on. So, that said, is this too big of an task for a newbie like myself to take on? The only engine I've ever worked on was a 31 Model A when I was fifteen, so I have a lot to learn to say the least. I was looking for a real hobby and am eager to learn, I have a shop manual, a couple friends (granted they are not at all familiar with Fiats), a garage and all the tools needed. What could possibly go wrong, right?

Thanks,
Tyler

[garion]

Blue smoke is usually oil, not coolant.. Coolant in the exhaust would be white..

I would think the first thing to do is pull the plugs, check those, maybe do a compression test.. But I'm a beginner too

[81SPIDERMATT]

friends..garage..tools .... and your smart and joined this forum... you can accomplish anything .... get that distributor to hold still and check for spark and fuel when trying to start ... they are quite easy to work on and a joy when you get there .... set some realistic goals for how you want the car and pick away bit by bit .... sorry I don't know if a rebuild is in order without some more info ... these are tough little engines ... be patient and use the search button for access to just about anything you can think of to read up on ... good luck ... post some pics ... enjoy the journey

[toplessexpat]

Many (most ?) of us on this forum are home garage mechanics - and several are professionals - as as noted, you'll find manifold (excuse the pun) help and information either from using the search function (just up there, beneath the red spider and in line with the front turn signal) or from posting and asking questions.

As Matt said - "rebuild" is a very varied concept with these little cars. Although, if your friend is right and he can smell radiator fluid in the exhaust burning off, and you also have blue smoke - then it's entirely possible with an engine of unknown heritage (yes - the eBay pixies may have got to the advert you replied to and made it contain *gasp* falsehoods!), you've got both a coolant and oil leak. Get that distributor static and not rotating, and start from there.

You say it's an 81 engine - that would normally make it Fuel Injected, but as it's a swap - who know's!? Let's quickly confirm that. Quickly stealing another thread on engine bays (http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16483). Does your engine bay look something like:

A)

OR B)

.... or something close to either of them. A is Fuel Injected, B is Carb'd.

In addition to the shop manual, an invaluable guide is produced by Brad Artigue (http://www.artigue.com/fiatcontent/Arti ... 124_MM.pdf) - and this describes a whole bunch of engine maintenance and "tweaking" that can be done. In fact his entire page (http://www.artigue.com/fiat/) contains a wealth of information - especially the wiring diagrams.... who knows whether yours is based on a 76, an 81, or a hybrid of the two. For what it's worth, I have a 76 and a 80 (in two separate cars!) and they are pretty different - generally because of the FI, but in other ways too.

Arm yourself with a can of carb cleaner, a rag, suitable safety precautions, and get cleaning up around the engine bay, looking for leaks, or listening to when the engine note changes when carb cleaner hits a spot (especially with the FI engine). You should start to find stuff that needs doing, and if nothing else you get a cleaner engine to post us pictures (here's some hints on that http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21014), and start a longer dialogue on fault tracing.

Good luck... this is all perfectly possible!

Andy

[RRoller123]

Welcome aboard! You will find plenty of knowledgeable and friendly people here.

Here is a thread on how to post pictures directly to the forum:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21014

And here is another picture-posting thread:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... 12&t=23084

And here is a link to a map of Spider owner’s locations. Many forum members have listed their locations.

https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=191825

Pete

[vandor]

Likely it is not just the cap that can turn, but the entire distributor, right? When the cap is lose it can be simply be lifted off.
Turning the distributor changes the timing, so if the distributor has turned by itself then that might be why the car is not starting. If this has happened you will need a timing light to properly adjust the ignition timing.

To assess the condition of the basic engine do a compression test. You can rent a tester for free from most large auto parts chains (Autozone, etc).

Good luck!

[Jimb]

You'll also need some beer.

Jim

[narfire]

You'll also need some beer.

AKA installation fluid....

[GeorgeT]

Loose distributor: Check the vacuum advance attachment; when I got my '82 the vacuum advance arm was missing and the PO put a screw in the base plate attachment hold to hold it in place.

[tyhous]

Thanks guys - really helpful information! Especially the pdf you linked Andy - the diagrams are awesome.

With beers in hand, we started taking things apart. The radiator fluid was clean and full to the top, so I don't think coolant is leaking anywhere. However. there is oil everywhere on the bottom half of the engine block and the spark plugs where full of gunk. I haven't figured out how to post pics yet, as soon as I do I will post some.
It is fuel injected, the distributor is loose, not the cap, and I found the bracket underneath that holds it in place that was completely loose, so I'll have to get a timing light later on. I did have a compression test done after I bought it about 3 months ago and it was good.
We took out the radiator and air filter, and when my buddy comes back in a couple weeks we'll start taking the top of the block off. We're hoping it just needs new gaskets...but I'd be surprised if that's all it needs. I was also thinking since I'm taking it all apart, why not add a turbo kit when we start putting it back together...

[RRoller123]

Here is a thread on how to post pictures directly to the forum:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21014

And here is another picture-posting thread:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... 12&t=23084

[bradartigue]

These motors are ridiculously easy to work on. You do have to remove them from the car, but they are lightweight and can be hoisted out easily once you take the head off. A little harder - but doable - if you leave it on. I generally pull out the engine and transmission together and fix what is wrong (and replace the wearable parts where possible) of both.

The symptom you describe sounds like an engine that has been overheated numerous times, and finally the gap between the rings and bores has become quite large, the engine can't compress well enough to generate power. At the same time oil is seeping into the bores, and this all burns together and creates a nasty smoke.

However,

A similar situation is with a blown headgasket, and the first thing I'll tell people when dealing with compression issues is to get the head off and look at things before you go yanking the motor out. A blown headgasket can dump coolant into the cylinders, cause poor burning, smoke, all manner of smells. If you remove your radiator cap and it has a pasty-like gray or brown substance on it then you have a blown headgasket. Even if you don't have the crud, remove the head and inspect some things, measure the bores in place, etc. Best case you are replacing the headgasket, worst case you're pulling the motor.

[toplessexpat]

Especially the pdf you linked Andy - the diagrams are awesome.

... and Brad was the author of those diagrams.... his advice is very sound!

[tyhous]

Thanks guys - sry for the mixup - I tend to read faster than my mind thinks it can.

Brad your advice seems right on - although the fluid in the radiator was bright green and super clean. Sounds like the cylinders will need to be bored out, but I'm glad to hear its easy to pull after you get the head off, which we will do in the next few weeks. After we get the head off, I will measure the cylinders and go from there.

I ordered a new set of gaskets, (as well as a Fiat Parking Only sign!) and will keep you posted. Thanks again for your time and advice - super helpful. I put some pics on photobucket but they were too big and only half the image would show on the preview, so I will resize them and repost over the weekend.

Cheers and have a great great Holiday!

[majicwrench]

A liltle late to the party here......

Sounds like fun to rip one of these all apart and fix em up...but is also fun to drive em. Methinks everyone is jumping the gun about it needing rebuilt. Full of clean coolant. Good compression. Why are you taking it apart?? Tighten down distributor and get it running again, then make some decisions. "Needing a rebuild" will not keep it from running.

I just hate to see you tear your car into a zillion little pieces, which will get spread all over garage, and maybe someday manage to turn back into a running car....or maybe not.

Get it running. Enjoy it. Fix things as they come up. Once you get comfortable tinkering with some of the basic things,if you then want to overhaul it/turbo whatever, you will be (sorta) ready.