firearms

[djape1977]

to be honest, i'm against guns in general, since i've seen up close what they do when they're used as intended by those who make and sell them. and then, since i don't live in US, this debate doesn't really concern me, but i am curious to find out what's really going on. also, i'm curious to know if there's life elsewhere in the universe...
when gun debate is started on this forum, i try to learn something new from people that i have at leat one thing in common, interest in vintage cars. if i was to discuss this on some other forum i would probably feel as if most posts were made by martians.

about world police: i've felt the US world police role on my own back and can tell you it's bloody stupid and achieved nothing apart from creating long term problem. and there was no talk of weapons of mass destruction in balkans.

guns against goverment: opressed always found way to get guns if they needed them. learn your history.
tyranical goverments came to power by popular vote in most cases. germany 1936 rings a bell? or tru a popular uprising to bring down another tyran (russia 1918).
do any of you really believe that it's possible to occupy country of 300 million people, even if they had no guns? how many soldiers would such occupation require? 200 million? no, you're already being fiscally occupied by selling your debt to china and arabs. occupation will come without a single shot being fired.

police response time: i live in a city of 2 mil people and you're never more than 500yrds away from a police patrol. rensponse time is under 2 minutes. it's definately a lot longer in rural areas, but crime is also much less common due to lower population density, less drug addicts, better maners in general...
also, there are no "bad areas" in the city. security is pretty much the same everywhere. no gang ruled areas, no areas where you can't live your car, but again, if you left a purse in a car in plain sight, consider it stolen anywhere in the city.
i'm happy to see a part of my taxes spent on police and would be happy to see more of them around.

having lived in a "police state" comunist ruled country up to 1990, i can tell you it hat it downsides, but it also had it's upsides. tru wast network of informers police had insight into pretty much everything. yes, they knew if you were cursing every time the president came up in conversation or on tv, but they also knew who got involved with drugs, who had money and no job etc, so organised crime was non existant and there were no robberies, home invasions etc. we locked our dors when we were going on a vacation with a single simple lock.
"locks are in place so that honest people don't get tempted", we used to say. nowdays, we have several locks, alarm systems, metal doors and we can curse who ever we choose on public. guess that's a cost of liberal democraty.

in general, in a city i live in, there are about 500 home break-ins per year.
couple per year happen when there's someone home. such break in resulted in a rape exactly zero times in my 36yrs.
murder is a result once every couple years.
what is stolen? electronic gadgets, jewelry, cash, GUNS.
in general, property is not considered to be valuable enough to shoot someone over it. the law also says so, and i agree with it in general. if you were to see your car being stolen from under your window, call cops. you don't have a right to fire a weapon over a car. if it gets stolen, you have insurance, they'll cover it. if you try to stop burglars or car thieves and they pull a gun or a knife on you, you're welcome to shoot them, but if it turns out you shot in dark at someone who was drunk and trying to start a wrong car with his set of keys, expect 10yrs suspended sentence and your gun licence permanently revoked.

[djape1977]

btw, around here, if there was a mass shooting such as in USA, in a school or shopping mall, i'd expect unonimous passing of even more strict gun control law within a month

[RRoller123]

Interesting perspective, Djape. Tyrannical governments certainly do come to power by popular vote at times, and usually, as was the case with the Germans and Russians that you cite, one of the first things they do after gaining power is to disarm their now dominated populations. I would suspect that there are rebels in Syria right now that might take issue with your apparent contention that these governments can be changed peacefully. I would suspect that the Egyptians, Libyans, Palestinians, Kosovans and Iranian resistance might also feel the same way.

As far as occupation of a large nation by a conquering army, history is resplendent with many examples. Certainly the great empires of Rome, Persia and The Mongols come to mind? As does the Byzantine. In many of our own lifetimes we see similar examples, most notably the British occupation of India and the European colonization of essentially the entire continent of Africa. The Nazi conquest of major portions of Europe, and the Japanese invasions of China and SE Asia are pretty good examples too. There are numerous other examples, all throughout human history.

Here is an interesting list of such things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... rebellions

It is an unfortunate, but a sad truth that the default position of the human condition is barbarism, against which we must always be vigilant.

There is an interesting piece of American history that is very local to us here in Massachusetts but is not too well known outside the area. It tends to get overshadowed by other events in Boston, but for people interested in history, it is called The Knox Trail. A young patriot named Henry Knox volunteered and managed to coordinate and lead the transport of captured cannon from Fort Ticonderoga to the heights of Dorchester in Boston, enabling the complete liberation of the city from the British.

It is a wonderful piece of history, bearing all of the human elements that make up the general admiration for any peoples who take up arms, at the quite likely expense of their own lives and treasure, against a tyrannical government. Here listed below are a few references to it, for anyone interested in the history of the matter. Knox is greatly admired here in Massachusetts, by people familiar with the history, and there are a few people who like to regularly recreate his journey across NY and Massachusetts on foot. But it always seems to be during the warm months! The ride might make a great Spider journey at some future point, maybe a 2-day affair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3LOXNTjmOA

http://www.lakegeorgeguide.com/history/ ... 1775-1776/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Knox_Trail

https://armyhistory.org/03/museum-snaps ... l-diorama/

[TX82FIAT]

In cities across Russia during World War II the Germans deliberately cut off the food supply. They killed millions of civilians and prisoners. People in Kiev resorted to widespread cannibalism to survive. I do not think that scenario will play out today as the world is very compasionate. However, how possible is it that the electric grid of the United States or any other country/continent could be destroyed. This would effectively shut down the ability to pump gas or bring food to market. How long until people starving in the street of major cities resort to barbarism?

People today live in comfort and have a hard time identifying with what could occur, however unlikely. When hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans it only took a couple days for the people in the Superdome to act savage. A few handguns in the hands of the just can alter events. What would people do if they could not get food for a month or two?

[djape1977]

interesting thing that you mention kosovo. were you there? well i was.
can you imagine a scenario where in a near future people of mexican origin would be a majority, lets say, in texas? it might happen.
now imagine that those people unonimously decide that they no longer want to live under goverment, constitution and rule of united states of america. well ok, then leave you'd say. hell no! you leave - they would answer, and we'll establish a new country of our own on a significant portion of your teritory. maybe we decide to join mexico, and maybe not, we like being self governed. so you reach a stalemate.
meanwhile, they stop sending their children to your schools and establosh their own education system where kids no longer have to learn english, even as a second language.
they stop paying taxes
they stop sending their men to army
they stop obeying the law of any kind
they start ilegally importing weapons
they become main point of entry for heroin into US (kosovans are since begining of 90's main rafikers of heroin in europe)
they start shooting at state police wherever they can
then one day police decide to gather up illegal weapons, and all hell breaks loose and you end up with a mess on your hands such as on wako farm. couple dozen dead people, women and kids inclooded. bummer.
then an global policeman shows up and says: now you leave texas and give them self rule, or we will bomb you back to stone age....

[djape1977]

As far as occupation of a large nation by a conquering army, history is resplendent with many examples. Certainly the great empires of Rome, Persia and The Mongols come to mind? As does the Byzantine. In many of our own lifetimes we see similar examples, most notably the British occupation of India and the European colonization of essentially the entire continent of Africa. The Nazi conquest of major portions of Europe, and the Japanese invasions of China and SE Asia are pretty good examples too. There are numerous other examples, all throughout human history

do you really believe that such an occupation would be possible in 21st century? how long it would last? year, two, or couple months? stop living "red dawn"! no partisan force ever managed to get rid of occupation. they were always just a support for real armies

[djape1977]

In cities across Russia during World War II the Germans deliberately cut off the food supply. They killed millions of civilians and prisoners. People in Kiev resorted to widespread cannibalism to survive. I do not think that scenario will play out today as the world is very compasionate. However, how possible is it that the electric grid of the United States or any other country/continent could be destroyed. This would effectively shut down the ability to pump gas or bring food to market. How long until people starving in the street of major cities resort to barbarism?

People today live in comfort and have a hard time identifying with what could occur, however unlikely. When hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans it only took a couple days for the people in the Superdome to act savage. A few handguns in the hands of the just can alter events. What would people do if they could not get food for a month or two?

do you think that armed citizens would have made any diference against germans? i doubt so. i rather think that they would be more proficent at hunting each other.
same thing happened in new orleans. untill national guard (an army) came in, all hell broke loose and armed "righteous" weren't enough to stop widespread acts of violence. we all was it on tv, same in US as in europe. that's globalization you see...
and while we're at it, remember that tsunami that hit japan and destroyed most of east coast kiling 30.000+? interestingly enough, people weren't trying to rob, rape and eat eachother, they were helping where possible and patiently waiting for proper help to arrive.
and that huricane that hit philipines? same as in japan. we saw no reports of civil disorder there either.
makes you wonder... in japan, there are literally no guns in hands of citizens. even a blade over 10 inches or so must be registered.

maybe people of usa would be better off by preparing for percieved doomsday by making plans in case of, such as japanese did in case of tsunami, than by stocking up on ammo...

[RRoller123]

To each nation its own system, and you can do as you please in your own sovereign state, as we do here in the US. But just for the record, after Katrina, it was the State that attempted/successfully in many cases, to disarm citizens who were defending their neighborhoods from multiple looting, murderous, raping gangs. This disarmament has since spawned quite a strong debate in the US regarding the constitutional power of the state to suspend the 2A and confiscate personal defensive weapons during national or regional crisis. That debate continues in the US. There are also many testimonials of pillaging gangs that turned the corner of a particular street, only to encounter well armed defenders, and decided to go elsewhere. God help the people of that elsewhere. They were the victims.

The same was true after the Rodney King LA riots in 1992. It was only the few armed Koreans who were spared by defending themselves from the barbarism of the masses.

But to answer your question directly, I neither expect nor deny any particular eventuality of future human history. It matters not what I think about the odds of any particular occupation, etc. But it is also quite clear to me that default state of humanity is barbarism, and we see it in every single corner of the Earth, without exception.

The affluence that we have built here has simultaneously created an inherent risk from its fragility, the supply systems are so complex and so interdependent that the risk of social disorder is certainly increasing. This makes the God given, inherent right of self defense even more important. I have no illusions that our society would break down under even a modest national catastrophe, such as a Tsunami, nuclear event, or oil cutoff. That's a logical, and frightening outcome. So, do as you see fit in your country, and may God bless you with peace.

[azruss]

Several years ago I vacationed in Hawaii. A month later, a hurricane went through and destroyed stuff that had been standing for a century. At the same time, Florida was hit with an equally devastating hurricane. All the news media were awash with pictures and stories of the damage and the destruction. Much of the coverage from Florida included accounts of wide spread looting and mob violence. When a TV reporter from the mainland asked a Hawaiian teenager about looting there. He told the reporter there wasn't any looting. The TV reporter asked the kid why. The kid said "this aint Florida, this is Hawaii, bra". Draw your own conclusions.

[djape1977]

exactly my point. you all need to seriously think bout what's going on in your society and why it came to the point that you feel a need to have a gun to protect yourself

[westy64]

exactly my point. you all need to seriously think bout what's going on in your society and why it came to the point that you feel a need to have a gun to protect yourself

I am 100% with you on this.

But I could not resist to buy a gun recently.
Honestly I do not regret.
Very powerfull, very light.
Not very expensive ; I think it's made in china.
I'll post a picture soon.

[westy64]

here it is !
It saved my life (at least my engine's one) !





Gentlemen,
Hope this debate will not turn to a USA vs Europe fight !
Remember we're on " The place for Spider enthousiasts from around the world " !!!

[fiat218]

exactly my point. you all need to seriously think bout what's going on in your society and why it came to the point that you feel a need to have a gun to protect yourself

I am 100% with you on this.

But I could not resist to buy a gun recently.
Honestly I do not regret.
Very powerfull, very light.
Not very expensive ; I think it's made in china.
I'll post a picture soon.

Good job

[fiat218]

I have to say this firearm thread is a tad carried awAy.

[bobplyler]

It is an unfortunate, but a sad truth that the default position of the human condition is barbarism, against which we must always be vigilant.

This brings to mind a quote from Robert Heinlein:
"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as “bad luck.”"