1969 Spider won't start (no click of solenoid)

[sshanky]

Hi guys,

I've been having a sporadic problem starting the car. Once in a while, turning to the start position does nothing -- no click of the solenoid and no dimming of any lights. It's basically like I'm not turning the key at all. After a few tries, it clicks and starts normally.

Recently, I was at a friend's place for a few hours, and it took at least 5 minutes before it finally started. Once it works, it works fine.

Now, I just can't start it.

I'm sure the battery is fine, and I know the starter is not being engaged because there's no load being placed on the battery when I turn the key.

I found the wire that leads to the starter solenoid and checked it for voltage -- 12V when the key is held at the start position. So I ruled out the ignition switch. I used the top of the engine as the ground, so I doubt it is the ground connection to the engine.

I can't reach easily any further, and I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is the solenoid. I guess it's hard for it to be anything else, right?

Thanks!

[dmwhiteoak]

Did you pull the wire off the solenoid to check voltage? Mine was doing the same thing and after I cleaned both connectors and tightened the female end on the wire I have had no more problems.

[sshanky]

There is a connector inline, just forward of the starter. When I pulled the red wire leading to the solenoid, it pulled the connector apart. That's where I confirmed 12V when the ignition key is turned to the start position. It felt pretty tight when I put it back together. I can't reach any further toward the actual solenoid, or at least don't know how. I should probably try checking that connector for tightness. How does the wire actually attach to the solenoid itself? Maybe it's loose there?

[dmwhiteoak]

The connector to the solenoid just pushes on. It is a female spade connector. It's a tight fit for hands but doable. This is where my problem was. Hopefully yours also.

[narfire]

Good ground conection on the battery. Tight

[sshanky]

I got the car up on a ramp (bump started it). Here is the best photo I could get of the posts on the solenoid. What I am finding is that there are three wires (including the red one with the connector) going to one of the posts, but I don't see any on the other post:


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8301 ... d21c_b.jpg

and


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8362/8302 ... df4c_b.jpg

Here is a shot looking down so you can see the connector


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8497/8302 ... 0206_b.jpg

as well as the three-connector plug on the fender

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8364/8301 ... e337_b.jpg


I can't figure out what the wires in that connector go to. I must be crazy but it looks like the black and red ones are both going to the same post, but it's hard to say. I do know that while it was disconnected the horn didn't work.

[dmwhiteoak]

I also have the three wire bolted to the stud. I have a red wire that fastens to a male spade on the solenoid. This is energized she the switch is in the start position. Mine is a 78. Maybe they are different but I would expect not too much.

[rlux4]

The other post has a ground wire (usually braided cable) for the starter body under the nut. You don't need to undo that nut. The red ignition starter wire can be reached by hand from above. You can even see it if your head is almost on the fender and shine a light down there. I find that easier than trying to check the connection by hand.
Ron

[sshanky]

Does anyone know what each of the three wires is? Why would we want the power fed to the solenoid to go anywhere else while holding the key to start position? Where do the others go?

[azruss]

the upper lug on the solenoid is just a connection point for distribution from the battery. the big one should be directly from the battery, the 2nd should go directly to the aternator, the 3rd, i think, should go back to the fuse box. The only thing the key does is activate the solenoid through the small red wire with the spade connector. your no contact issue is an ignition switch issue, or connector between the switch and the starter, or an issue with the solenoid itself. It is common on old starters to have the solenoid travel stick from wear. Also the solenoid pushed a plate against the upper and lower lugs on the solenoid to take power to the starter. If this plate is dirty you get the same symtoms. try hitting the starter with a broom handle or a 2x2 while the key it engaged. If the starter pops to life, then you probably have a solenoid or wire to the solenoid issue.

[sshanky]

Thanks for the reply. I am puzzled because I see the red wire from the ignition switch, a larger black one, and larger yellow one all going to the same post (you can see it in the shadows of my first photo above). The smaller red wire has a connector which I pulled apart and tested for +12V when key is turned to start, and it works.

So I'm puzzled how all of these could come to the same post on the solenoid.

I finally got the car up on ramps yesterday, so I will try smacking it with a broom handle to see if that helps. I suspect a bad solenoid, but I sure would love to find out that I had a bad connection somewhere! I hear it's tough work replacing the solenoid.

Thanks...

[rlux4]

Under the post is a male spade connection. The red wire with the female spade connector goes to it. I can't make out your pictures, but there should be three other wires on the solenoid lug.
ron

[azruss]

you can do a quick bench test of the starter without taking it out of the car. Since your car is early, you have the battery under the hood. make a long jumper wire with a female spade connector on one end. unplug the red wire going into the back of the solenoid and replace it with the jumper. with the car out of gear. strike the other end of the jumper on the + battery post and see if the starter spring to life. This test bypasses the key and all the inbetween wiring. If the starter fires right away then the problem is not the solenoid.

[fiathead]

My '69 did the exact same thing. I could get it to start by smacking it with a rod and hammer in a pinch. I pulled the solenoid off and cleaned it out. Everything checked out nice and it worked fine on the bench when attached to the starter. After reassembly, I patted myself on the back for fixing something with only labor involved and was a happy camper for about 2 months. It started to happen again, so I just installed a new solenoid and the problem has not been back at all in the 7 months since I did that. Those 7 months saw the car used more than it had been in the last 5 years combined, so I think it's fixed.

If tapping with a hammer and rod fixes it and if the voltages are correct, then go ahead and do the solenoid. Either that or give a shot to one of the gear reduction starters. Either way, you'll be pulling the starter. The nice thing about the '69s is that they have a bit more room to work with in there. I pulled the starter, swapped the solenoid and replaced it in about an hour while working on my back on the garage floor. It's also a good chance to adjust the clutch since you'll disconnect the cable to get the starter out.

[sshanky]

That was a good explanation. I banged it today and it did start, but then I decided to wiggle the red wire that connects to the top of the solenoid via a spade connector. While wiggling it, I had my brother turn the key. It seemed to be that the top spade connection was not good. Frustrated, I decided to pull it off the top of the starter. The spade connector seemed to be a bit on the loose side, so I squeezed the connection a bit tighter with pliers.

The problem now is that I can't re-connect it! I can't get a good angle to push it on from top nor bottom. I am afraid I'll have to remove the starter to do it. What would you do? How is the starter removed? Are there just three bolts behind the starter and it simply drops down? I have the car up on ramps so I should be able to do this.

I would love to be able to put it on without having to remove the starter.

Thanks