Brake Replacement Question

[everdyl]

Quick (or not so) question about brakes. About a month ago, I experienced sudden brake failure as the pedal traveled all the way to the floor and the red light blazed on my dash. After a few inquiries, a little soul searching, and a little more beer, I decided Fiona was most likely suffering from a failed Brake Master Cylinder. I did notice, however, that her right rear brake was dragging and getting progressively worse. I removed the front wheels and things looked pretty normal (except for the rounded bleeder valve that I was unable to open on the left side). The rears, however, looked really bad (see below).

So I ordered a Brake Master Cylinder, two rear rotors and rear pads. I'm thinking that the rear caliper(s) may need rebuilding/replacing, although I am admittedly unsure. I've done simple brake things before - pads, bleeding, hose replacements - and I would like to tackle Fiona's brakes myself. Before I embark on what I hope is a relatively smooth and straight forward adventure, I do have a few questions.

1) Are caliper and rotor replacements on 40 year old Italian cars relatively easy, or should I be very afraid?

2) Can I use a bleeder valve from one of the rear brakes to replace the rounded one in front?

3) Do I need to bench bleed the new BMC on or off of the car?

4) Are aftermarket front brakes a good idea for casual drivers or basically a waste of my precious few resources?

5) Are there any tricks of the trade that would make this easier on my girlfriend and I?

6) Does anybody live in Rockford, Illinois and have experience with Fiat Spider brakes? I will shovel your driveway this winter for just a wee bit of help.

That's about it. Please let me know if I'm forgetting anything. My brain is only firing on 3 cylinders today, so I'm pretty sure I am missing some crucial question somewhere. Thanks!

[4uall]

hello & welcome to the best place on earth

1) Are caliper and rotor replacements on 40 year old Italian cars relatively easy, or should I be very afraid?
very easy to deal with

2) Can I use a bleeder valve from one of the rear brakes to replace the rounded one in front?
yes
3) Do I need to bench bleed the new BMC on or off of the car?
no idea
4) Are aftermarket front brakes a good idea for casual drivers or basically a waste of my precious few resources?
sure
5) Are there any tricks of the trade that would make this easier on my girlfriend and I?
the rears screw clockwise, the front can be pushed in
6) Does anybody live in Rockford, Illinois and have experience with Fiat Spider brakes? I will shovel your driveway this winter for just a wee bit of help.
no

http://wwwe.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopi ... =9&t=19794

[TX82FIAT]

everdyl, before I hit the points you have asked about. I'm not an expert but have rebuilt my entire brake system from the master cylinder all the way through the calipers to new discs on my 82'. You are not really sure what you are dealing with until you start.

1) Are caliper and rotor replacements on 40 year old Italian cars relatively easy, or should I be very afraid?

You can do this. You may need some patience as these older parts will want to stick. Take great caution not to damage the hard lines. If you are going to buy new Calipers and discs I recomment you buy new hoses to connect the hard lines to the calipers as well. Something as little as a leak in the hose could allow a car parked for a period of time to get air in the lines. It may not be your master cylinder... while it certainly could be. I recommend replacing the disc, caliper, hose and four new speed bleed screws. Try bleeding the system after install and see if that fixes the problem. The calipers are relatively straightforward as are the discs.

2) Can I use a bleeder valve from one of the rear brakes to replace the rounded one in front?

Yes, they should all be the same size. However, for a few bucks I would recommend new speed bleed screws.

3) Do I need to bench bleed the new BMC on or off of the car?

I have read about it being done both ways. I think I was fortunate as I did it in the car with shop towels to avoid brake fluid all over the place. I did have to bleed the lines for what seemed to be days before everythings started working properly.

4) Are aftermarket front brakes a good idea for casual drivers or basically a waste of my precious few resources?

No 100% sure what you mean. Pads do not matter as long as they are the right size and type. The discs just need to be the right size. The benefit of drilled and slotted discs is not needed for everyday use. If you are going to track the car the drilled and slotted may help. Otherwise basic discs will work. As for the Calipers. you need to use the right caliper as well. I would not use any brake parts that are not designed specifically for a fiat. The rebuilt calipers from Autozone are said to be junk. Don't know I rebuilt my old ones.

5) Are there any tricks of the trade that would make this easier on my girlfriend and I?

The disasembly is going to take some sweat equity if they have never been apart on the car. For the hoses some people will spray them down with liquid wrench and let them soak for a while. Others have taken a torch to them when stuck just to have the metal expand a little when hot. Be careful if you try this and read up on it.

Bleeding the brakes can be a pain in the ass. Before replacing the master cylinder fix the rear brakes and bleed the system until all you see is new clean brake fluid. Check the plastic connections at the top of the master cylinder. These plastic connections crack and leak. air has been able to enter a good master cylinder bracause of these broken plastic bits.

6) Does anybody live in Rockford, Illinois and have experience with Fiat Spider brakes? I will shovel your driveway this winter for just a wee bit of help.

No luck on location. However, I think Illinios has an active FLU (Fiat Lancia Unlimited) chapter. You ay be able to get in touch with some folks in your area that way.

[4uall]

ditto sorry I have limited time (at work)

[baltobernie]

A high-quality flare wrench is extremely helpful when dealing with ancient brakes. Here is one place where the stunning prices of Snap-On or MAC are worth it. Unless your rubber hoses are very recent, they should be replaced at this time. Don't forget the short line at the rear axle.

There are many horror stories on this forum about "rebuilt" calipers purchased from the big box guys. You're better off getting calipers from one of the vendors mentioned here. Follow the shop manual, and don't forget to lube the sliding bits.

Regarding aftermarket upgrades: I just returned from a 1,000 mile rally in the Blue Ridge mountains and a bit of track time at VIR. My Spider has OE Brembo rotors and "street performance" Ferodo pads front and rear on stock calipers. No problems during the entire week.

[everdyl]

Thank you so much for the advice! I really do believe that this could be one of the best places on Earth...

Unfortunately, I already ordered rebuilt rear calipers from Autozone. I can probably return them, or at least sell them for a few bucks to somebody who might want them (or maybe even try using them?). The driving season is rapidly coming to an end here in Northern Illinois, and the car is safely stowed in my garage.

Is it safe for me to put the car up on jackstands all around while I'm working on the brakes? Or would it be better to do the front or rears first?

Thank you so much for the advice.

[TX82FIAT]

I had the car on jack stands for two months while I redid the brakes. use the rear axle for the stands in the back. There are holes by the front control arms you can use. As long as the car is balanced and your not jumping around you should be safe. If you have a busy garage with kids and the like I would not have it on stands for long. Some will use blocks as a secondary security measure.

[baltobernie]

Unfortunately, I already ordered rebuilt rear calipers from Autozone. ...

Examine them carefully upon receipt for dodgy bleeders, pitted cylinders, etc. Save your receipts and boxes, just in case.

Get in the habit of buying parts from the Spider-specific vendors mentioned on this site. Yes, even they get caught out sometimes with defective stuff, but they'll always make it right. The "Parts Wanted" section of the forum is also a good place to post your requirements.

+1 on the jackstands. Use your floor jack under the pumpkin in the rear; don't let the axle hang down to its fullest extension for extended periods. That short rubber brake hose back there will fail if stretched too far.

[narfire]

I'll second the need for a quality flared wrench for the brakes. A tip I read here years ago that has helped was to actually tighten the nut the slightest or try and tighten before trying to undo. If the bleed screws are siezed in the calipers they can break off with ease. If you end up using the Auto-Zone specials you will be using new bleed screws anyway.
The front brakes are more or less straight forward to re-build if the insides are not pitted. If you use air to push the piston out, watch your fingers,it really hurts when a finger or thumb is caught btween the piston exiting and the inside edge of the caliper... fingernail finally grew back after 6 months
Rears are a bit more fussy.
New soft lines(all 5) are a must in my opinion if they are still original. If the $$$ were available, I noticed a positive difference with the steel/braided lines.
Chris

[So Cal Mark]

I'd second the comment about replacing the hoses, a collapsed hose can cause the caliper to drag. Remember when you bleed the rear brakes to disconnect the compensator link and push the arm up to it's highest point. Otherwise you'll never get the air out of the system.
In the picture, is that rotor cracked?

[131]

I don't think it's cracked Mark, it looks more like what's left of a pad backing plate being "welded" on to the disc after the pad ran out of friction material.

[So Cal Mark]

it looks like another layer to me, but I just can't tell from the pic

[htchevyii]

Vice grips clamped onto the flare nut wrench is the only way I could get mine off without striping them. I couldn't believe how bad the a1cardone calipers were that I ordered. I thought that being brake parts that they would have to be safe. It took 4 just to get 2 marginal ones, (pitted bores, striped bleeders, etc).

[131]

it looks like another layer to me, but I just can't tell from the pic

"Welded" probably wasn't a good description, a layer of melted material from the pad backing plate stuck to the disc. Most of it could be lifted off with a screwdriver, some bits will be welded to the disc face, the disc is scrap.