81 starts & idles fine until warm...UPDATE

[giuliot60]

Thanks Brad and Jay.

You make a lot of sense Brad. The way I (try to) think, is to buy the best you can and (for the most part) why wait until something fails. It'll be more cost effective in the long run. How much is it worth to not get stuck somewhere?

That said, I need to put my money where my mouth is.

I've been driving the Spider for the last 3-4 days now. She starts right up, idles fine, and I'm not getting any of that power loss issue, so I'm happy. But she does smell like she may be running a little rich, doesn't feel as peppy (technical term) as I think she could be, and when I'm taking her up into the 2.5-4 rpm range on the road I'm experiencing what feels like a slight power wave. Could it possibly be somewhat related to the drivetrain at all (bearings need to be repacked, transmission bearing making a little noise, ball joints and suspension rubber need replacing, etc.)?

Regardless, she could stand a tune-up and I'm obviously gearing up to do it soon using Brad's "Bosch L-Jetronic Fuel Injection Guide, FIAT Fuel Injected Engines " First Edition - July 2004". Is this the best guide, or should I be using the "Engine Maintenance and Modification" (2007)? The 2004 guide appears to be more comprehensive with regard to FIs.

Actually Brad, although I don't mind the stock look, I do like a little bit of color in the engine compartment.

Giulio

[bradartigue]

The 2004 one is not very good. One of the problems with the internet is things hang around far longer than they should. 2007 has a good procedure. For the 2012 version, which was supposed to be the 08/09/10/11 version (I'm slow) I added only one thing, that the very first step is to remove the idle bypass screw, clean it all up, and replace the o-ring, then reset the idle, reset the TPS, and so on. I usually take the top of the plenum off of these things every 50,000 miles or so and clean out the throttle plate and the inside of the casing, it is usually cased in crud.

A wave sounds like that AFM door is dragging its ass or the rheostat (which is all the AFM really is anyone besides some switches and an air temp sensor) has some corrosion or a dead spot. How smooth does that door open?

The richness thing bothers me, but it would be consistent with a dragging AFM door, or one that has been modified (spring moved to fool the ECU, which is a dumb thing to do). Has it been opened?

The thing runs, so figure out the richness first, if that door is dragging due to warpage (common) or abuse (common) or the AFM has been tampered with and the spring moved (which is very hard to tell since there is no default marking) then you're looking at borrowing an AFM to confirm the issue and then replacing yours.

[2ndwind]

Giulio,
You are aware that dielectric grease is an insulator not a conductor, right. Dielectric grease goes on AFTER the connection is made.

[giuliot60]

OK Brad.

I did pull out the idle adj screw when I was having the rough idle issues. It was filthy. I just wiped it off, but maybe I should have shot some carb cleaner into the hole. Is that OK to do? Where do I get new o-rings from?

The AFM door seems to move freely and doesn't appear to be warped. I think I cleaned it with carb cleaner. Would it make sense to lubricate with something as well?

There appears to be evidence that the top of the AFM was opened, silicone along the seam. Should I go into it?

I've been having a private conversation with Richard Ridge mainly about the Turbo. Some of his concerns: my distributor may still be the modified one that came with the turbo (and I should hold off replacing the dizzy parts until I know for sure), the non-functioning vacuum advance, and the Hobbs switches that are still connected to the car and to the turbo harness (which he feels should be replaced with the regular FI harness) that may be telling the ECU to bump up the richness. Could I disconnect the Hobbs switches without causing any problems?

I think I can get hold of an FI harness and an AFM to replace and/or test.

Thanks. Great info! I'm getting some amazing insight from you guys.

Giulio

[giuliot60]

I did not know that Steve. How would I use it on sealed connectors? Or do I even need it in those cases?

GT

[bradartigue]

I don't know anything about turbo Spiders; I've never even seen one. Certainly it could have an effect on the system.

The o-ring is

I would remove the idle screw and replace the o-ring, and clean the holy moses out of it with carburetor cleaner. From my soon to be published book on the subject:

"The very first step in setting the idle on an L-Jetronic equipped vehicle is to completely remove the idle speed screw and inspect or replace the o-ring.
Note: the idle speed o-ring size is 10mm (3/8”) outside and 6.5mm (1/4”) inside. The ring thickness is 3.2mm (1/8”). These can be purchased at most hardware stores and are available in fuel-resistant compounds.
While the screw is out fully clean the orifice using a can of high pressure carburetor cleaner. This is a major source of air leaks and almost always overlooked. A replacement ring can be found at almost any hardware store or auto parts store. You can also put a light coating of non-hardening sealant on the threads. Do not use hardening sealant!
Run the engine to normal operating temperature. On cars with automatic transmissions, set the parking brake, block the wheels, and put the transmission in "D". Completely seat the idle speed screw. Loosen the accelerator linkage stop screw retaining nut and adjust the stop screw to achieve 800 to 900 RPM on manual transmissions and 700 to 800 RPM on automatic transmissions.
Lock the accelerator stop screw with the retaining nut. Use the idle speed screw to set idle at 850 to 900 RPM on manual transmissions and 700 to 800 RPM on automatic transmissions." (c) TM (R)

Don't lube the AFM, it actually might make it worse. If the door works, leave it alone. You would need a tool to gauge physical resistance to determine if the door tension has been altered, so don't worry about that either (the FI computer will actually compensate unless it is really out of whack).

Going back to something I should have said earlier, what color are your plugs? That's how you determine richness.

The waviness can certainly be caused by not having distributor advance. Richard is going to disagree with me on needing vacuum advance, but I think it is absolutely necessary for proper operation and makes a big difference in drive-ability.

[giuliot60]

OK. I will clean the heck out of the idle screw and orifice, and replace the o-ring. Would the same non-seize sealant used on spark plugs be OK?

I haven't checked the plugs since I was having the rough idle issue, and at that point they were black as night. I cleaned the Bosch plugs and put them back. Csaba said they would be fine, and like always, he was right. I wanted to drive her around for a while before pulling them again.

John Jacob from FLU reminded me that I should probably cap off the dist vac line until it's resolved.

Thanks again!

[bradartigue]

OK. I will clean the heck out of the idle screw and orifice, and replace the o-ring. Would the same non-seize sealant used on spark plugs be OK?

I haven't checked the plugs since I was having the rough idle issue, and at that point they were black as night. I cleaned the Bosch plugs and put them back. Csaba said they would be fine, and like always, he was right. I wanted to drive her around for a while before pulling them again.

John Jacob from FLU reminded me that I should probably cap off the dist vac line until it's resolved.

Thanks again!

Yes, that anti-seize you use on plugs is fine. You can buy little bags of it at auto zone. Even a thin smear of grease helps, it seals out any air but more importantly keeps that screw from seizing.

Absolutely cap off the distributor vacuum line if it isn't working. It is just an air leak otherwise.

[giuliot60]

Thanks BA!

[giuliot60]

So following Richard's advice I looked at my dizzy.

The distributor does have the advance limit link (and only one spring) as Richard mentioned the Turbo dizzy would have (mirafiori post). It seems like it should be any easy fix. Take off the link and add a spring. Am I correct? I know I used to be able to get sets of springs with various tensions for my old Pontiacs that would give you different performance results. Vendors?

So it looks like I don't have to replace my dizzy, correct?

He also suggested I check the pick up wire inside the dizzy cap, because of my tach bouncing at idle rpms. The blue wire had exposed itself since the last time I looked, and looks like it's about to go. I used black gasket silicone to seal it until I get a new one. That should be OK right? I figured it was heat resistant and better than electrical tape.

I also capped off my advance vacuum hose until I get a replacement, and pulled the idle speed adjustment screw as Brad suggested, sprayed it (and orifice) with carb cleaner, applied anti-seize to the threads, and reinstalled. But still need to replace o-ring.

I haven't started her up yet. I want the silicone to completely dry.

I'll let you all know how it goes.

I'd like to know if disconnecting the connected turbo harness wires (until I replace with stock FI harness) would have a positive or negative effect. Anyone?

Thanks.

[giuliot60]

So the car has been running. A little better with the vacuum advance hose plugged and the pickup wire siliconed. It does tend to run better at lower rpms and without a load (heavy acceleration) I'm assuming because of the 1 spring/limiter turbo scenario. My tach stabilized for a while, but has been bouncing again at idle, hopefully the new pickup will cure that issue. If not the capacitor is going in.

Waiting for my advance weight spring to come in. It turns out Auto Ricambi purchased springs from a retired engineer (and Spider owner) that did extensive research on dizzies and had his own springs manufactured. So I have a feeling my car will be very happy when the spring is added and pickup, module, and vacuum advance module (as well as a new cap and rotor) are replaced.

Stay tuned!

[giuliot60]

Today I received my new dizzy spring from AR (their stuff gets here so fast) along with some other dizzy tune-up parts. Took off the limiter and put the new spring in, unfortunately, it's not providing any resistance even with the weights fully pulled out. Csaba is looking into why. Also put in a new cap and took her for a spin. Regardless of the lack of second spring resistance, she's so much peppier. Acceleration and torque has been much improved. Can't wait to put the rest of the parts on and time her.