Engine Stall within seconds

[rdavidson52]

'84 Spider Azzura, 53,000 miles: Didn't quite put a hundred miles in the past two years, under 3,000 in the past 7-8.

With so much setting lately I'm supposing the gas isn't the freshest. If it helps, i have had Seam Foam treatment in the gas.

Daughter wants it in her sweet 16 party for phots ops with her friends. Went to start it and boy was it rough. It was a little rough last time started, then after running it up and down the scales for a while it cleared up. Has new (barely used) wires, plugs, and dizzy innards.

Checked firing, ofund #3 and #4 mae very little difference when pulled, others would stalled it our. Swapped wires, same thing.

Got worried about sitting so much maybe that maybe some vales, or even cylinder sticking was going on. Checked compression #1 = 146, #2 = 147, #3 = 150 and #4 = 150.

Decided the injectors could be gummed / shellaced, pulled them, had them tested. #3 and #4 were at 32 and 34. Had them cleaned elarlier this week while I order seals and hose kits fro IAP. Received kits and seals yesterday. The test / cleaning company had gone ahead and installed new seals. Had a heck of a time trying to seat the injectors this morning. Finally compared their seals and IAPs. Theirs were fatter than IAPs.

Installed, all back together. After recharging the fuel system, starts right up...for a few seconds. It will start up, running smoother than before, and die in a few seconds. I've look for vacuum leaks, fuel leaks, etc. and can find nothing obvious.

2 or 3 times when I'd try a restart, it acted as if there was some sort of back-pressure with the started bogging down and sounding like it might have very slightly counter rotated. Checked the wiring to ensure dizzy to plugs were correct sequence, all good.

Any ideas what to check on?

Thanks in acvance,

Robert

[bradartigue]

Only diagnose what you changed for now. You changed the ignition system and the injectors...

Did you remove the distributor? Your condition could be from a distributor 180 degrees out (timing set to fire on #1 and not #4 at BTDC). Did you unplug the electronic control module from the distributor? It is (usually filthy) white and connects the dizzy to the ignition coil pack.

Are your injectors are turning on? Use a voltmeter or test light (see the shop manual for the procedure). Check injector resistance.

Is your fuel pump running when the air flow meter flap is rotated? To test, remove the air filter and reach in there and turn the flap. When the key is ON (but the engine is not running) you should hear the fuel pump.

Try those, report back.

[So Cal Mark]

sounds like it's running on the cold start injector, did you remove the grounds for the injectors? They attach to the upper plenum bolts. The injectors require a signal from the coil, did you remove any wires from the coil?

[rdavidson52]

Sorry for all the typos last night! Had been out in near 100 degree weather all day and can see I must have been fairly tired, and still had the UTEP/ Oklahoma game to go to.

The ingnition system items; dizzy cap, innards, plugs and wires were changed a while back, and the car did run since. The dist was never removed, and connections were not removed since past running condition.

I did remove the wiring harness attached to the plenum, and reconnected after install of the injectors and rail.

When I say "recharged" the fuel system, I am talking about turning the key on, without starting, then off and listened to the pump each time. Performed this cycle 4 times, then it took several seconds longer for first fire than normal.

I am planning replacement of the filter in the morning while everyone else is sleeping. Thought is, it could be somewhat plugged up and it's been there quite a while. Will also remove the connection on top of the plenum, clean in case, and reconnect.

If still an issue, I will start other electrical diagnostics. I just have a feeling it's something simple I'm missing. Had something similar many years ago on a Lincoln Continental I worked on for a family and found someone had stuffed a rag in the snorkel portion of the air filter housing. It couldn't breathe!

Will keep at it.

Thanks for input. Robert

[So Cal Mark]

if the afm is adjusted properly, your fuel pump won't run with the key on, engine off. The afm flap has to open to see power to the fuel pump

[rdavidson52]

Ok. Any idea what the low sort of hum may be?

Thanks.

[So Cal Mark]

could be the pump, maybe the afm flap is stuck which would explain the quick stall

[bradartigue]

Ok. Any idea what the low sort of hum may be?

Thanks.

Some cars have been modified so that the pump runs all the time with the key on. Not really bad, but not really good either (if the engine stops the pump is still running, a safety issue).

Anyway, it sounds like the pump is running, so move on. Test the injectors per the shop manual instructions. I think they simply aren't firing, and that's usually electrical.

[rdavidson52]

Sorry. Had a tree come down very early this morning and spent the day cutting it up and clearing debris. It fell into the road, and, at least it fell into the road, not house or one of the other vehicles.

Will get back to the Fiat when possible this week.

[rdavidson52]

Soooo. I stopped by a nearby Autozone after checking on-line to see who may have a set of noid lights (all but one of my vehicles is fuel injected). Just got to the house, came in and uncovered the Fiat. Unplugged the injector connection on #1, found a light that fit, had my Daughter turn the key.

First couple of seconds came on with a couple flashes as it started, then went out and stayed out. Based on instructions, I would say an electrical issue is at fault. But, if someone has a different thought, please let me know.

For electrical, I just am not sure where to start.

During the first go around, I had unplugged, separately, each of the plug wires, at the plug and the distributor cap. I'd swapped them around when testing to see which cylinder(s) had a running issue and if it would travel with the switching. Did not disconnect anything else in / on the distributor. When preparing to pull the injectors for inspection, testing and eventual cleaning, I did disconnect the electrical wires on top / rear of plenum, the connection to the cold start valve, and the sensor connection top front of engine, next to the top radiator hose.

Yesterday, I decided to pull many of the electrical plugs to clean and freshen with some dielectric grease. Pulled all of the plug-ins at the relay high on the wall, next to the coil, and, all the wires connected to the coil; cleaned and greased, then reconnected (had taken plenty of photos beforehand just in case).

I also pulled out the air filter housing (treating the plug same as the others). The flapper worked, moving very smoothly and solidly, then reinstalled.

[So Cal Mark]

you need an ignition signal from the coil to the ecu in order for the injectors to pulse

[rlux4]

Look for a good connection at the brown with white stripe wire on the negative terminal of the coil.
It goes to the #1 terminal of the ECU. You need to look at your wiring diagram to locate terminal #1, it's not in the first position. Make sure you have the pigtail snugged into it's connection on the back of the ECU if the coil connection is good.
Ron

[GeorgeT]

Could be the Double Relay failing.

[rlux4]

That could be. It's easy enough to check. The terminals for the injectors on the dual relay are 88b (3&4 injectors) and 88g (1&2 injectors). Check for power coming out these terminals. You'd need to try to get the probe of your volt meter onto the terminal without disconnecting the other side's pigtail and then start the car, see if they pass power and then stop when the engine dies. It should be constant power, the injector pulse is controlled by the ECU on the ground circuit.
Ron

[rdavidson52]

Checking the wiring earlier tonight I didn't find anything untoward. In my '84s case, there brown, black and "pink" (probably faded red) wires connected to the negative side of the coil. All the wiring parts look fine. With more time tomorrow I'll follow through the harnessing to check them out.

I was looking at the relay and it is obviously orginal also. With six wires plugged into it, I am guessing that is the double relay mentioned. Looks like the number is 0332204(or 6)125, 13V 20/30.